Semi-skip chain angle

[bitzer]

Two chains- A longer bar is going to have a slower chain speed naturally. You will probably end up changing your cutting technique some to accomodate the longer bar. I played around for a long time with bar lengths. It probably took me 5 or 6 months of production cutting to get the system to where I like it. Once I did I was easily putting more wood on the ground every day. To me any experience I can offer might help someone else make more money. Having to keep a buisness afloat and feed a wife and five kids really gets me thinking of ways to stream line everything. Max output and efficiency while trying to maintain a degree of safety. The thing is you have to find the sweet spot with your set up while maintaining safety. consistancy will produce over time. My cutting style is probably not safe for everyone, but I'm comfortable because its mine. When you are bore cutting trees you have almost always have to keep an eye on the saw instead of the tree. Its a hard habit to break when you start back cutting nearly everything, which is to me one of the goals of the longer bar. Reading trees when back cutting is a big deal and you lose all of that when boring. If you know a tree is going to come off the stump fast cut the majority of the far side off far first and then come back to your side. This gives you less wood to cut when it really starts moving then if you cut straight across the back. With a longer bar you can reach that far side without really moving much. Usually you can stay in one place while facing and back cutting, which to me is another goal of the longer bar. Time saving. If a tree is going to come off the stump fast, put a snipe on it as insurance and a nice wide face. Also if you've got a deeper face like 1/2 the diameter or so most of the compression wood should be gone. Its really a style change. Once you get it figured out though you'll wonder why you ever did it any onther way.

 

[twochains]

Thanks Bitzer! That's some solid advice there!

 

[twochains]

Dude, you need to go 30 days before base jumping

You have a good humor to ya! :msp_biggrin:

 

[inbredJed]

Hang in There

TwoChains: Man, all of us who have had to learn to hand-file square-grind have first cussed it up one side and down the other, the moment that we realized that our amateur sharpening job resulted in a chain that cut like mad, but cut crooked. :msp_angry:

BTW, never ever compare the cutting performance of square to round when using factory grinds. Imho, Stihl round factory grind cuts fairly well, though not as well as hand-filed round, because you can file the side-plate a hair-bit deeper. But square factory grind, to me, is intollerable (especially Oregon) and yet, hand filed square is the fastest and straightest cutting chain I've ever used, although I had the devil to pay to learn how to do it.

I really admired the fellow who posted the vid of his method with the double-bevel. Works for him, and it's obvious that he knows what he's doing. I started using the triangle (hexagonal) file about two years ago, and never looked back. It's sweet cause you can just barely graze the tie-straps with the flat part of the file on your downward stroke, (while the top of the file remains in the corner of the chisel) and you end up with perfect side-plate angles every time on both sides (left and right). I swear it cuts faster than the double bevel too, but maybe that's just all in my head, because it doesn't make sense. (I attribute it to the fact that the triangle takes out more gullet (for chip-flow) than the double-bevel, but that's probably only because I used to get super lazy about round-filing out my gullets) lol.

I also deeply agree with the guy who said that a more aggressive side plate angle cut much better.

And thanks tons to Shaun who knows about the greater top plate angle cutting a wider kerf. Man, who taught you that? That's amazing... I've never though of that, but it's totally true now that I think about it. I wonder if that's one of the reasons that square cuts faster?

Oh, one last thing: try ramming a wedge between the bottom of the bar and the chain when you're sharpening square to get the chain really tight. Really helps.

 

[mdavlee]

The triangle files were harder for me to get a good grip on. That's why I stuck with the double bevel. I do take out a lot of gullet area so the files aren't hitting it. Any one that takes the time to learn to square file is usually well pleased with the results.

 

[inbredJed]

Oh, I get it: you probably grip the file with only one hand like the guy in the vid. Yeah, sure, the double bevel wld be a lot better for that, plus it'd be a lot more rigid.

I'm a two hander--stump vise, wedge rammed in the bottom, one hand on the handle, one on the tip of the file.

 

[roberte]

That triangular file works a lot better in a guide.

 

[mdavlee]

If its the same video on here that's me. I use my other hand to steady the tooth. I've never tried using a guide to square file.

 

[inbredJed]

who knew?

roberte: Man, that's even better--at least to give it a try..... I never even knew that there was a guide for the triangles. Do you know how I cld get my hands on one? I've seen the guide for the double-bevel, but the darned thing was like over $200.00 from Bailey's.:msp_sad:

mdavlee: Yeah, o.k., that is you. Pretty cool how you use your other hand to stabilize the bit, and sort of use your finger as a guide all at the same time. Still, might be worth a try to ram a wedge in the bottom of the bar. You don't have to stabilize the bit at all if you ram it in there tight enough. It's impossible to break the chain--trust me. Then you can use your other hand just as a guide if you want. Me, I grab the file tip with my other hand, but everyone's different. I might give your method a whorl. Pretty cool stuff. You guys are about the only fellers I've come across who have the patience for the darned thing. Most guys get a grinder as soon as they can get the scratch, but I feel like I've got better stuff to spend the bucks on. Plus, I don't mind it. Kind of a challenge ya know?

 

[mdavlee]

I've tried filing with both hands and the chain tight but I'm quicker that way. I've got a razor sharp II also. I do file some just to keep on practice. A lot of times I file in the vise with the chain locked down by vice grips. I can get 3 or 4 teeth on each side that way before I have to loosen them and roll the chain.

 

[roberte]

View attachment 288901
All I did was nothing. O well , I held the file in place.

 

[Joe46]

View attachment 288901
All I did was nothing. O well , I held the file in place.

Interesting. I always used a triangle file by hand. Never thought of setting one of those guides up to file square chisel.

 

[roberte]

I've got some stihl semi skip in .063" and full comp square in .050" if you would like to try a loop of it against the oregon. Just let me know and I'll even put it on the grinder so you can try a better example of square chain.

shoot, i'll sign up for that .063 111 driver

View attachment 289415View attachment 289417
Well I took up the offer and mdavlee sent the chain, first grind as advertised. The chain came today, I put it on at the almost done point and gave it a try. Mind you falling a couple of firs and bucking the logs is not a huge sample size , but I'm impressed. So good job.

Hey Twochains, no joke

 

[1270d]

Could you show a close shot of your angles? I all put one up of what I'm running when I get back from thawing out in Arizona for a few weeks.

 

[tramp bushler]

Save them or trade them or file 'em. Teeth sharpened with little or no angle don't cut as wide a kerf.

If you are going to make a statement like this. You should at least make sure u r correct first.

Oregon does not make semi skip ripping chains.

Where do some of you come up with some of these ideas?

 

[northmanlogging]

for a big dirty spoon in the mix...

I converted 2 round file chains to chisel on friday... so far so good, one of em cuts better than the factory chisel, angles are still a bit steep didn't want to lose to much tooth.otstir:

 

[tramp bushler]

The woodchuck is right. The chain isn't a rigid affair by a long shot, the rivets are not spun that tight, and there's plenty of room for wiggle in the bar even when the bar and chain are both brand new. Chains with less angle tend to cut a narrower kerf, while chains with more angle tend to cut a wider kerf. The top point does in fact get pulled off to each side, and at some point if you increase the angle too much you'll wear your bar groove out faster, as well as get slower cutting. As with everything, there's a sweet spot... and it turns out that for typical applications its right around the manufacturers reccomendation. Whod've thunk it?


Shaun

Yes it may cut a little wider But. The amount that a lot of top angle wears out the drivers and the bar groove is not worth it.

 

[tramp bushler]

OK, so. Out of the box Oregon chisel doesn't cut so good. . Its not necessarily the actual sharpness, or the angles.
They come with pretty high riders and worse of all the corner is too high. Sometimes it's over onto the top plate . They make the pro chains so some goon head can't take a factory chain and get his lunch eaten.
There are so many things u can do with a chisel chain to make it cut this way or that, . If you stick with the factory grind but give it just a little beak on the top of the side and keep your riders at 30-35 thousands. It will cut amazing.

 

[tramp bushler]

From those I've seen on here mdavlee has the best knowledge of chisel grinding a chain to cut true hardwoods like what two chains is falling. .

I myself run about 27° top angle. A little beak on the side strap and around 75° side angle. My riders at 35-40 k. . Its smooth aggressive and doesn't wear out the drivers and bar groove to quick.

I need a magnifying glass to really see my corner anymore. Probably in hardwood you would want to minimize the beak on the side and try to be cornered up real good.
Madsen's has put out a lot of good info on chisel chains.

 

[tramp bushler]

Oh, one other thing I do is tho I run the top angle of the top of the cutter at 27° , I thin the underside of the top quite a bit. That is one of the things I prefer
about the triangle chisel files . I can hog the inside of the tooth out and do gullets at the same time. For filing on the bar I always shove a wedge in on the bottom of the bar to get the chain real tight.