Sharpening

[panolo]

What kind of grinder? Those cheap ones that dont allow you to set all the angles are worthless on full chisel chain. With full chisel, you need a 10* upward angle and those harbor freight, $30 grinders dont have that adjustment. With semi chisel, those cheap grinders work pretty well because you dont use the 10* angle when sharpening them. I had a fix angle grinder once and gave it away when I bought one of the oregon clones at Northertool. The Norther grinder would allow for all the angle adjustments, all tho the little dgree indicators where off a little bit. I used a new chain to set all the angles and marked the scale and it worked great after that. I gave the clone away to a friend after buying the sthil 3in1 file system. I wanted it close in case I rocked a chain, but prefer hand fileing now.

Timber something. Never really looked to be honest. He's not a cheap skate as he upgraded to the Oregon hydraulic. Mounted it on a piece of 2x8 so I can clamp and use it in multiple areas and just went ahead and experimented. I didn't 10 degree grind any. I just checked the angles best I could to make sure they were close. Maybe I will try that and see if it makes a difference.

It's not doing too bad a job. Cut about 4 cord yesterday with one saw and one chain. Touched it up twice with 5 strokes a tooth using the 2-1. Mostly all red oak with a little ash, maple, and couple of white oak logs mixed in. Most was clean except for the few that were in the bottom of the pile and pulled some frozen ground up with them.

 

[Philbert]

. . . With full chisel, you need a 10* upward angle . . . I gave the clone away to a friend after buying the sthil 3in1 file system.

The STIHL 2-In-1 file holder is designed to be used in a level position; with a 0° down angle.



"Sharpening STIHL Saw Chains"
http://static.stihl.com/security_data_sheet/downloads/Sharpening-STIHL-Saw-Chains.pdf

Philbert

 

[muddstopper]

The STIHL 2-In-1 file holder is designed to be used in a level position; with a 0° down angle.



"Sharpening STIHL Saw Chains"
http://static.stihl.com/security_data_sheet/downloads/Sharpening-STIHL-Saw-Chains.pdf

Philbert

I didnt see any mention of chain up or down angle, might of missed it. But on every chain box I have bought will have a chart similar to this one, http://en.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/FilingAngles.pdf, on the back of the box, and the chains I buy always call for the 10* up angle. From personal experience, I can tell the difference in cutting with a chain sharpened at 0* and one sharpened at 10* For semi chisel, the proper angle is 0*

 

[Philbert]

I get it. They provide us with confusing and, sometimes contradictory, information.

I have seen different angles in different charts. Some of the newer Oregon charts recommend the 'down angle' for many semi-chisel chains as well. That's why I encourage people to consider these specifications as 'starting points', as opposed to gospel truths.

It's also important to understand the file guides. Both the STIHL / Pferd 2-in-1 guide; and the basic, stamped metal file guides; are designed to be used level. The Oregon file charts even have this noted with an asterisk (*).

Other guides may have the down angle 'built-in'. The Granberg style clamp-on guides let you dial in whatever you want. With a better grinder (as you noted), I can try and match any profile that the user prefers.

Bottom line is that you found something that works for you.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Here's a condensed screen shot from one of the Oregon pages:


And from a STIHL guide :


Different manufacturers. Different chains. Different saws. Different wood. Different users.
So, again, take all the 'specifications' as 'starting points', and find something that works for you!

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 1

Was unable to load this as a single document, due to its size, even zipped. So uploading it in 3 PDF parts. Lots of good stuff inside.

Original document: sharpening_STIHL_saw_chains_0457-181-0121_02.pdf

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 2

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 3

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Posted this before, but if it helps you to remember . . . .

You file your square chains in,
You file your round chains out,
You drop down the rakers
and you clean the gullets out.
Make all teeth the same
and you hear the sawyers shout,
"That's what it's all about!" - Philbert

 

[Jeffkrib]

Guys I'm looking to buy a chain grinder in the next couple of months, been filing for years but would like to correct angles and rocked chains. I just got an old hand me down rusted Oregon clamp on file guide but the body of the clamp is plastic so I'm not impressed. Also I use Carlton chain which is very hard on files. I find it difficult to get the file to bight and cut unless its a brand new file.
I have a bit of money set a side and could even buy a USG which I could probably use a USG all my life and hand it down to my kids. I'm a toolmaker by trade and have used surface grinders, cylindrical grinders, tool & cutter grinders ect so I understand for precision its all about rigidity and the amount of play in the moving bits in the hinge. That's one half of the equation the other half is how precise the chain is clamped in the vice.
Which brings me to my question looking on ebay I found this Windsor grinder which is clearly a Jolly star grinder but it looks to have a different chain vice. Does anyone have guidance on the quality of the these two different vices This Windsor grinder can be had for $375, Jolly star for $550 and USG $1000.

Tecomec jolly star





Windsor Grinder

 

[Philbert]

Tecomec makes a few different models of grinders, which are sold under a few different brand names. In some cases, these grinders (e.g. Oregon branded) may have different or additional features.
http://www.tecomec.com/category/_chain_saw_accessories/index.htm

The Jolly Star grinder you have pictured uses the same 'self-centering' vise used on the (now discontinued) Oregon 511AX grinder, which worked well for normal use, but some high-volume users wore these vises out:
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511ax-vise.228345/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/has-anyone-used-the-oregon-511a-and-the-511ax.261521/
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511ax-repair-mod-and-similar-units.263497/

The Windsor grinder you show looks like the very basic Tecomec grinder, which uses a cam style vise (same type as used on the also discontinued Oregon 511A), which can still wear. It does not have the 'down angle' adjustment or a built in light, but available for under $200 here in the US via eBay.

I believe that both use the same motor, and the same grinding wheels, and are both better quality than the 'clone' / 'look alike' versions.

The Oregon 520 grinder has an improved cam vise, that clamps the chain from both sides, has all of the angle adjustments, and a unique wear feature for the wheels to keep them centered (under $350 in the US from various sources). Check that model out too.

Other grinder tips here:
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511a-grinder-improvements-tweaks.197073/

Philbert

 

[Jeffkrib]

Thanks Philbert, that's the sort of answer I was looking for. I will go to a couple of local dealers, hopefully they have some grinders for me to have a look at and make my decision from there.

 

[Ted Jenkins]

I can see that Philbert has done his job. In the past he has always had kind words to say and patiently explained what grinding disks to use. Me on the other hand not so much. Only 15 or 20 years ago I learned to check my rakers every time I ran a file over the cutters. Although I have an electric grinder have never been able to use it more than every five years. This past week I got a new roll of 404 semi with lots of chrome on the cutters. Also have been playing with angles and depth so was able to cut more logs than two guys with new 660. Not me alone against two guys at the same time, but was fun. Thanks

 

[Ted Jenkins]

Timber something. Never really looked to be honest. He's not a cheap skate as he upgraded to the Oregon hydraulic. Mounted it on a piece of 2x8 so I can clamp and use it in multiple areas and just went ahead and experimented. I didn't 10 degree grind any. I just checked the angles best I could to make sure they were close. Maybe I will try that and see if it makes a difference.

It's not doing too bad a job. Cut about 4 cord yesterday with one saw and one chain. Touched it up twice with 5 strokes a tooth using the 2-1. Mostly all red oak with a little ash, maple, and couple of white oak logs mixed in. Most was clean except for the few that were in the bottom of the pile and pulled some frozen ground up with them.

I cut Friday almost 2 cords before I needed to hit the chain, but not anywhere near 4 cords. Very impressive. Thanks

 

[Jeffkrib]

Dropped into my local Stihl dealer on the way home from work today to talk grinders. They didn’t have any on the shelf but had a USG and Oregon 511ax in their work sho. The guy behind the counter only uses the Oregon because “on the Stihl everything is back to front and you even have to use it left handed”. The price of a USG $1300. He tried selling me a Jakmax grinder and claimed it’s a Tecomec but I’ve looked it up and it uses different castings to the Tecomec / Oregon grinders and wanted $400 for what I’d say is a Chinese knock of.
In the absence of any better recommendations I’m going for the jolly star I posted a few posts up as it’s the best value for money here in Aus.

 

[NSMaple1]

Just bouncing back in about my crooked cutting issue.

I have a theory I haven't had a chance to check out yet. I since noticed or realized that the saw that chain was on (an MS360) is pretty leaky of chain oil, when it is sitting. If there is much oil left in it. I also looked at the oil adjustment screw. It was turned out pretty well all the way (I got it used, first time I have looked at it). I thought it was oiling adequately - I would look at the chain sometimes during an idling pause and be able to see a bit of oil when I pulled up on the chain. But I don't think I could ever get a fling off the nose. So, I think I have a hose that needs replaced, maybe cracked, and a prematurely worn chain (well, the teeth are 3/4 gone, but the drivers were wearing moreso). Maybe even affected bar wear, might need a new one of those too. It is riding pretty sloppy in the rails. Quite a bit of wiggle. So any little bit of sideways pull, from either hitting a knot, or a slight mis-filing, or nicking dirt, or whatever, would cause the chain to tip and go sideways pretty easy.

Anyway, I will be digging into my oiler hose before I use it again - could still be a couple months before I get around to that. But I now think crooked cutting in a lot of cases may have nothing to do with sharpness of chain or straightness of bar. Which is why it was driving me so nuts - and I likely should have picked up on it way sooner. Duh.

 

[Ted Jenkins]

STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 3

Philbert

Once again very well said. Maybe some will pay attention. Thanks

 

[deadtrees]

I was filing chains today when my wife looked in the door and said "I see you are sharpening blades." I gave her a pass because she has been a good wife for 39 years and I know she was feeling bad because the puppy has been regressing on the housebreaking the last couple days.

 

[Krazo]

Thanks Philbert for uploading the STIHL Sharpening Guide PDFs.

I'm just getting my new Super Jolly up and running and practicing on a junk Sthil RS33 chain. I ground it with a 10 degree down angle but was not coming out with the same profile as my new RS33 chain that just came out of the box. So I setup the grinder to a 0 degree down angle. Now the profile on the junker is looking like the new chain. I did a forum search using "Sthil" and "Down Angle" and dug up this thread.

Would it be fair to say that the new chain does not come from the factory with a down angle ground into it? The guide in the Tecomec Super Jolly Manual said to put a 10 degree down angle on the tooth.

Not to say that introducing a down angle into the tooth is wrong. I'm just trying to come up with a method to get consistent results in the way I do my sharpening.

At any rate the PDFs are loaded with great information.

Thanks Again!

 

[CR888]

Just do what you have done and work towards getting the cutter how you wants it to look. Just going off an arbitrary set of angle specs is in no way going to garuantee the results say of a new RS chain. Other variables need considering like tooth length, wheel profile etc. Treat angle specs as a guide or something to start with and then adjust from there. Your eyes and brain are by far your best grinding aids.