It seems to me that so of you think that accident site investigation is totaly inaccurate. I not going to be able to point out all of the good and logical statements made by all of you and reply to them . You guys make some excelent points about loads angles and friction. The guy in question will never be able to learn form his mistake ( DOA ). Thats why I started this thread and have deen working on a load calculation program. Just for all the SA out their my dad has been helping me with some of the cal because he has a mechanical and structural eng degrees. When you start looking at what is involoved with figuring out all the forces that are applied it gets complicated quick. what I am looking for is a way to scientifically back up the so called commen sense approach to tree work that we all use daily.