Small log mill or MK 3, help with decision

[boostnut]

Not sure what to do here. I've got a couple saws, neither of which are ideal for milling. First is a promac 850 with a 28" bar. Sure, plenty of power but slow. Its also a really nice saw that has seen very little use, not sure if I should really put this one on milling duty. Next is a MS280 with 20" and 17" bars. A little on the small side but a higher revving saw.

Now the rest of the story. Our kitchen needs new cabinet doors and drawers. My next door neighbor is a cabinet maker, he's taught me a lot and leaves the shop door open for me at all times. Sooooo, thats my excuse to get into milling. Now, the cherry trees are standing tall and waiting for me to put them down. Looks like they're about 16" dbh. What would you do?

 

[mtngun]

Cherry you say ?

Bear in mind it'll need to dry for a couple of years, and you'll have to have a place to stack it in the meanwhile.

Pro bandmillers don't get excited about working on shares, and never get excited about urban wood, but still, if you could find a miller who'd do it on shares, that might be one solution.

Or, if you had to hire a bandmiller for a day, that probably wouldn't cost any more than a used milling saw and Alaskan.

Don't know anything about your mac or how many trees you have to mill, but I'm pretty sure the MS280 is not a serious contender.

I wish I had your problem -- figuring out what to do with all those cherry trees.

 

[boostnut]

"Bear in mind it'll need to dry for a couple of years, and you'll have to have a place to stack it in the meanwhile." Yeah, shouldn't be a problem with all of the other projects on my honey-do list. They, and the upcoming child will keep me plenty busy.

"Pro bandmillers don't get excited about working on shares, and never get excited about urban wood, but still, if you could find a miller who'd do it on shares, that might be one solution." Probably not likely around here, cherry isn't anything out of the ordinary. By the way, who said anything about "urban" wood? These future cabinets are no where near town, no fence line,..... Only way they may have steel in them is from a tree stand from over 20 years ago.

"Or, if you had to hire a bandmiller for a day, that probably wouldn't cost any more than a used milling saw and Alaskan." Hmm, I'll call around, I know of a couple.

Don't know anything about your mac or how many trees you have to mill, but I'm pretty sure the MS280 is not a serious contender.

I wish I had your problem -- figuring out what to do with all those cherry trees.[/QUOTE]

 

[gemniii]

If you really want to breath two stroke fumes while leaning over a running saw get the Mark III.
Your promac should pull it fine. Get and keep several sharp ripping chains

Before you drop $$ on a bandsaw make sure you really want to mill.

My present cost of wood is about $2,000 per board foot, compare to $10/bf at the lumber yard.

 

[oldsaw]

Okay, this is coming from a real cheapskate.

Your Promac will do fine. Get the Mk III, you can get more out of it. Get the 36" mill, and the 42" Oregon PowerMatch bar from Bailey's. Get 4 of their ripping chains to fit. Get the Auxiliary oiler, 3 gallons of bar oil, a couple of wedges if you don't have some, and a cant hook (I've got a 60" LogRite). You will need a guide board, I use a 10 foot 2x8, but there are a lot of different things you can use, including ladder sections and uni-strut. The search function is your best friend.

I've been milling for 6 years and am down to the point where the wood costs me pennies per board foot, plus gas and oil. I've got $400 into my saw, got the mill for $150, aux oiler was $25 or so, 42" bar was $80 when I got it, chains were $30 each, guide board was $8 or so. My first haul was 400 bft, so at the end of my first run, I was into the wood for less than $2/bft. Since then I've milled thousands more. Yes, it's hard work, but there's nothing better than using wood that you cut, milled, dried, and planed yourself.

Cherry, cut to 4/4 or 5/4 is usually ready to use in just a few months of drying, not 2 years. Oak takes a bit longer, walnut a bit less. Get a moisture meter as well, you will need it. Cut up some stickers. I got a bunch of construction castaway 2x6 material. Since I dry my wood in my garage, I just needed 2 foot stickers, and ripped them down on my table saw, 3/4" square. If you are going to set them outside, I'd probably go an inch. I use old latex paint to seal the ends of the boards. Anchorseal is better, but is more money, and my wife is addicted to watching me paint, so I have plenty of old paint. The cool thing is that you can color code your batches, so you know which stuff is more likely to be dry, and it makes it easier to try to find matching boards for projects.

Again, search away, there is an amazing wealth of info on this site and plenty of guys willing to give some good advice.

 

[BobL]

Okay, this is coming from a real cheapskate.

I'm into cheap as well. The only thing is usually pay for new is materials.

The cost of my mill/076/rails/cant hooks etc worked out to less than $10 a log. An I would be near spending that on gas/lubes etc anyway

The 880/441 combo is just sheer indulgence at the moment and is yet to earn its keep but do not fear - it will be tested. I was supposed to sell the 441 but I kinda like that lill' sucker and am modifying my small mill to take a 24" bar with that saw.

 

[BIG JAKE]

You're PM 850 is an 82cc saw. I'd mill with it to start. I can mill around 130bf in a day by myself with my 066. That includes 3 hrs drive time and I'll quit around 4:30 to 5:30. I actually figured it out one time because I wanted a reasonable return for my effort. At 1.00 per bd ft for rough cut I figure it's a 100.00 day(free time) for me(after expenses) and I still have to edge the bds but rough cut is what I build southwestern style porches. I get enjoyment out of the experience too . The 130bd ft figure is what I'm left with after edging which I'll do the following day. If I was close to the site and started at the crack of dawn, on a very good day I think I could hit close to 200 bd ft. Use this as a baseline(softwood) to gauge performance of your 850 which I figure you'll need to knock off 25% production with or so because my 066(92cc) is tuned for milling to about 11000rpm while your mac will be around 8-8.5krpm. The magic number CC wise seems to be 92cc or so and modern saws of this type will handle 36" logs softwood or hardwood. If you decide to upgrade here is a link for info on most of the saws you might see out there used-look them up and you'll get an idea of whether or not you can use that saw for milling. Older saws turn lower RPMs but may be adequate for what you're gonna do like your 850.http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/GasbyManufacturer?OpenView
Log size should dictate your choice of saw.

 

[boostnut]

This is why I'm addicted to AS, you guys are great. Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it.

Now, as far as using the PM850, Oldsaw recommended a 36" mill and a 42" bar. Trees of this size are not common around here, with the exception of oak and maple. I don't have any "love" for oak and maple as far as wood working goes so I don't see myself getting into big wood. The 24" or 30" MK3 makes more sense to me BUT I have no idea what I'm doing, 100% rookie. So fire away, am I off track here? Thanks again!

 

[oldsaw]

This is why I'm addicted to AS, you guys are great. Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it.

Now, as far as using the PM850, Oldsaw recommended a 36" mill and a 42" bar. Trees of this size are not common around here, with the exception of oak and maple. I don't have any "love" for oak and maple as far as wood working goes so I don't see myself getting into big wood. The 24" or 30" MK3 makes more sense to me BUT I have no idea what I'm doing, 100% rookie. So fire away, am I off track here? Thanks again!

I'm a Boy Scout, "be prepared". Better to have the capability of doing a big log when it comes around than not. A 36" mill will give you 34" of capacity. I get a lot of big oaks and walnuts, and the mill comes up a bit short more often than I'd like. However, cut a few boards, roll, continue, until it's worked down to size. As long as you can roll it. Had a big oak that was sunk into the dirt. Had to rig a winch to get it over.

Problem with the 24 or 30" mills is you lose that 2" and 22" isn't a very big throat. If you go smaller, you will need a 28" bar for the 24" mill, or a 36" bar for the 30" mill. I run both a 36" and 42" bar on mine. I scribed a line in the aluminum so I can adjust it quickly. Get the 36" mill anyway, just in case, it gets you about 28" of clearance with the 36" bar.

If you aren't doing oak and maple, what are you getting into? Kind of leaves walnut and ash.

 

[boostnut]

Cherry!

 

[oldsaw]

Cherry!

Yeah, there is cherry. Got a good stash of that going, always willing to take more, but that's of anything.

 

[BobL]

If you are not just into churning out boards and want to be able to mill interesting shapes, especially around branch unions, then this is where a longer bar shines.

 

[gemniii]

Discussion of cost of wood to an "occasional cutter" often overlooks costs that would be laid out in a business plan, and unless you can print money, have to be taken care of by someone.
That's why I threw out my $2K/bf. It includes my tractor, trailer, backhoe and a bunch of other stuff, but not my time, especially the time sunk buying all this stuff.

If the OP's sole reason to mill is to build cabinets then tradeoffs must be realized.

If he built a few cabinets for others at a going labor rate I expect he could quickly buy the wood for his own cabinets.

If he is actually wanting more tools, likes to cut wood, thinks the smell of two stroke is good (though it can't compare to diesel) and doesn't mind throwing money down a hole (hoping some of will come back) then he might be a closet CS miller.

Example - my case - I've a lot of trees in the way of where I want to go, but not enough for a "pro" logger to worry about. And I'm going to be retired. I need to build some sheds, so I've got the time, the means, and the trees.

Under present economic conditions I don't think it's wise to advise people to freely spend money on risky investments (i.e. band saw mills).

My total investments in saws, mill, chains, oil, tools, etc, (except for my 021) is under $650. And that includes $200 in an NT chain grinder, and a Woodland pro breaker spinner. A few hours work at my job pays for it and it's good to last. An entry level band saw system good to last runs almost $5K.

So a decent size Mark III sounds ideal.

/edit
Just realized I now need to get a planer to finish what I started

 

[Andrew96]

I suggest the CSM as well. Cheap...will get the job done for now. However, go for the big one. I too thought I'd never see a tree big enough to need much over 20". Until you get going and find all the bumps and branches, crotches, bends and so on, that you need to get by. Even if you only want to make boards...consider that there are many crazy shapes you'll need to cut through, wiggle by, and you'll need the width to do that. If not..you'll spend another 15 minutes with another saw tuning your log up.

If you are not just into churning out boards and want to be able to mill interesting shapes, especially around branch unions, then this is where a longer bar shines.

Of course, with a longer bar you could make some crazy shaped log into something cool.

 

[oldsaw]

I suggest the CSM as well. Cheap...will get the job done for now. However, go for the big one. I too thought I'd never see a tree big enough to need much over 20". Until you get going and find all the bumps and branches, crotches, bends and so on, that you need to get by. Even if you only want to make boards...consider that there are many crazy shapes you'll need to cut through, wiggle by, and you'll need the width to do that. If not..you'll spend another 15 minutes with another saw tuning your log up.



Of course, with a longer bar you could make some crazy shaped log into something cool.

That's exactly my point, you just don't know what you will find. I never expected to do any real big stuff, but my buddy Lester has a nose for them. Biggest one so far was about 46" DBH. If he's just focused on cherry, then a 20" tree is pretty big, but any bump or lump on a 20" tree means the mill will stop until you remove it, as you said. I wouldn't buy anything less than a 36" mill, even if you got a 28 or 32" bar to run on it for starters. If you got a big tree, get a 42" bar and a couple of chains for $160 or so, and if you get 200 bft from that log, it cost you 80 cents bft plus gas and oil. 300 bft and you are down to about 50 cents. On the next log the cost goes down even more. My whole rig is down to about 10 cents/bfd plus gas and oil.

CSMing is hard work, but the cheap wood that comes out is well worth it. If I get Dad talked out of that big ash tree and another couple I've had my eye on, I'll be well under 10 cents.

 

[boostnut]

If he is actually wanting more tools, likes to cut wood, thinks the smell of two stroke is good (though it can't compare to diesel) and doesn't mind throwing money down a hole (hoping some of will come back) then he might be a closet CS miller.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. You nailed it gemnii, rep coming!

 

[teacherman]

That's exactly my point, you just don't know what you will find. I never expected to do any real big stuff, but my buddy Lester has a nose for them. Biggest one so far was about 46" DBH. If he's just focused on cherry, then a 20" tree is pretty big, but any bump or lump on a 20" tree means the mill will stop until you remove it, as you said. I wouldn't buy anything less than a 36" mill, even if you got a 28 or 32" bar to run on it for starters. If you got a big tree, get a 42" bar and a couple of chains for $160 or so, and if you get 200 bft from that log, it cost you 80 cents bft plus gas and oil. 300 bft and you are down to about 50 cents. On the next log the cost goes down even more. My whole rig is down to about 10 cents/bfd plus gas and oil.

CSMing is hard work, but the cheap wood that comes out is well worth it. If I get Dad talked out of that big ash tree and another couple I've had my eye on, I'll be well under 10 cents.

Mark, you make a lot of sense. I hope to make some beams out of a few of the trees we cut down over Christmas break if we manage to pull off that excursion. I am bidding on a Haddon Lumber Maker, a little bitty portable mill that slides down a 2x4. The description says that ripping chain is not required, that one can just resharpen a regular chain differently. I figure they mean a less acute angle on the cutter tip. I thought I could set the bar at an angle and be in partial pasta mode, and maybe have some termite spaghetti as a byproduct. Is this feasible, or is that odor much like that I noticed when I toured the farm where they raise those bucking bulls for the PBR?

 

[BobL]

I thought I could set the bar at an angle and be in partial pasta mode, and maybe have some termite spaghetti as a byproduct. Is this feasible, or is that odor much like that I noticed when I toured the farm where they raise those bucking bulls for the PBR?

You'll need to be within a few degrees of parallel to pul any sort of noodles.

 

[gemniii]

Mark, you make a lot of sense. I hope to make some beams out of a few of the trees we cut down over Christmas break if we manage to pull off that excursion. I am bidding on a Haddon Lumber Maker, a little bitty portable mill that slides down a 2x4. The description says that ripping chain is not required, that one can just resharpen a regular chain differently. I figure they mean a less acute angle on the cutter tip. I thought I could set the bar at an angle and be in partial pasta mode, and maybe have some termite spaghetti as a byproduct. Is this feasible, or is that odor much like that I noticed when I toured the farm where they raise those bucking bulls for the PBR?

The HLM looks like a clone of a Grandberg mini-mill.
From my limited experience these might be OK for beams, where if you vary an inch off it's not crucial, They are 1 step above freehand.
But if you want to try and get lumber cut down to an inch or so thick you should at least get a Mark III. You can get a 36" Mark III new for < $200, and I've seen a few used for about $100.
And as far as sharpening a regular chain differently - WHY??
Unless you don't plan on using the chain again just buy a ripping chain from Bailey's. My ripping chain costs 0.19 US per link.

 

[oldsaw]

Mark, you make a lot of sense. I hope to make some beams out of a few of the trees we cut down over Christmas break if we manage to pull off that excursion. I am bidding on a Haddon Lumber Maker, a little bitty portable mill that slides down a 2x4. The description says that ripping chain is not required, that one can just resharpen a regular chain differently. I figure they mean a less acute angle on the cutter tip. I thought I could set the bar at an angle and be in partial pasta mode, and maybe have some termite spaghetti as a byproduct. Is this feasible, or is that odor much like that I noticed when I toured the farm where they raise those bucking bulls for the PBR?

I've used the Harbor Freight version to quarter a 42" white oak. Worked okay, just had to make sure the clamp stayed tight.

You would probably want ripping chain if you were going to do any real cutting. Regular grind chain would dull rather fast.