So I gotta ask....

[Skeans]

OK that clears a lot up. Thanks
from the examples.
Some of the video's I looked at I just didn't see the speed for two pieces of equipment. I realize they are still getting used to it. One of the advantages I thought at first it had over a Hand Faller was the ability to pile into a skid of sort.
That definitely is not the way to do it at all though. You definitely don't want to slow down 'front end' Not to mention it would be a poor saftey practice... if, you know.. "down came baby, cradle and all".

"5 Acres"
"hanging out to almost 2000ft "
There is lots of variables involved.

Any more specs, facts, particulars for a numbers guy please?
I'm assuming there isn't rock faces, huge cedar stumps, multi slope faces & creeks everywhere.

How about Species, Diversity, Diameter, spacing,planted/consistant,
voids, average run angle, reach, passes, hours, working from both sides down then one side up? Or would that cost more time opening up all the time when you don't have too? Probably eh? The other side to that is in the case of ROB base, you wouldn't have to move until you came back up in cases where it may be more crucial. Is it worth using your max reach? I'm assuming it would eat to much time up?
I think that's it..lol
I know, saw hands have a lot of questions. I guess some of those answers would be a "sometimes thing" You got to know when and when not too.

I suppose steeper narrow fingers at the sides of the block and area's of the bottom that may not line up will have to be hand felled. They should positively have all that engineered before hand will strict consequences
If any tracks trespass. I totally agree with what Northman is getting at. If there is a will there is a way. If there is a small piece at the side with no ROB base or its a big hassle for what it's worth and someone thinks it's going to save them big time and money if they can crib a low side and there home free into the flat corner. I'm sure that won't change the evolvement but it's a rule that needs to come in sooner rather than later because it will come in after a senseless fatality or two. that I'm sure we can all agree on.

I was told up where you guys are it's cheaper to have a guy in a buncher cutting an hour then having a certified faller is that true?

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[northmanlogging]

My sentiments exactly. We're even getting a road built and a couple of culverts installed out of the deal. I don't see how it pencils out but I know it must because the bidder is a sharp cookie who's bought a bunch of sales here.

Then I would have to say someone missed something, or a bad cruiz report maybe? Road building isn't cheap, so you would think unless its a huge project it wouldn't pan out to bid so high, unless there is a big patch of high grade in the middle you folks missed? Or a bunch of ceder, ceder is going for 1200 or higher, mostly higher, and ALTA is down in Morton so 1375-1775 per 1k?

 

[1270d]

Then I would have to say someone missed something, or a bad cruiz report maybe? Road building isn't cheap, so you would think unless its a huge project it wouldn't pan out to bid so high, unless there is a big patch of high grade in the middle you folks missed? Or a bunch of ceder, ceder is going for 1200 or higher, mostly higher, and ALTA is down in Morton so 1375-1775 per 1k?

Just remember not all price sheets are created equal. There are guys here who pay contractors more per ton to cut their wood than the contractor could get himself on the open market. One of the mill foresters said that they (the mill) created a few monsters when they issued some of the big supply contracts.

 

[Skeans]

Just remember not all price sheets are created equal. There are guys here who pay contractors more per ton to cut their wood than the contractor could get himself on the open market. One of the mill foresters said that they (the mill) created a few monsters when they issued some of the big supply contracts.

Exactly even here there's a few different price sheets just for different contractors my last export was 950 per thousand

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[madhatte]

This is DOD land, and it's all skidder ground. Steep skidder ground, but skidder ground. This will be a 3-person crew not counting the log truck. Not a lot of overhead. Lean and efficient. DF only on this sale except for road and landing construction.

There are guys here who pay contractors more per ton to cut their wood than the contractor could get himself on the open market.

You might be on to something there. I'm not privy to that information at all.

 

[Skeans]

This is DOD land, and it's all skidder ground. Steep skidder ground, but skidder ground. This will be a 3-person crew not counting the log truck. Not a lot of overhead. Lean and efficient. DF only on this sale except for road and landing construction.



You might be on to something there. I'm not privy to that information at all.

Would you like me to take some pictures tomorrow of our long log thinning stuff setup for a grapple cat and forwarder for pulp? This is a 2 man setup not including a driver.

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[madhatte]

Absolutely. I'm always into seeing equipment.

 

[Skeans]

Here would be the perfect setup for tethering in my book do all of it at once only thing I'd change would be put a dangle head on it for processing at the top of the hill.

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[madhatte]

I can see it. Q: what would you do with a stray punkin, though, with no yarder to get it to the landing?

 

[Skeans]

I can see it. Q: what would you do with a stray punkin, though, with no yarder to get it to the landing?

How large are you thinking? Say a 7000 sized head will process up to a 26" tree I'd get it in the clam, bring it up to the landing depending on size either get the head on the log and basically walk it down the log to process or hand buck till I got to a processable size.

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[bitzer]

I think the tethering thing is cool for the sake of advancing technology. On the other hand you lose jobs in the industry. On another hand how many guys really want to work hard anymore? That's a big problem on this side. Getting fresh faces in the woods who know how to work smart, efficient, and can handle the daily wear and tear. Personally I think it's stupid finding more and more expensive ways to cut less and less expensive wood. One of the two other hand cutting crews I know of in the area just went mechanized. The other crew only work half the year and are hacks. When I told my wife he bought a processor the first thing she's says is "he caved huh?" That's the way I think about it. My skidder has been paid for for three years now and the only electrical on it runs through the batteries, starter, alternator, and heater. Here if you buy a processor plan on a double bunk and a truck. There's no way around it. The pulp market is good for **** too and this year has been a wet one. Maybe when I'm old and worn out I will go mechanized, but I just don't see making any money. Mills do have more wiggle room on price when you get to know them and you're not just Joe blow off the street. My Mills owner told me he would rather see a loss then lose out on purchasing logs. At least the mill keeps moving and jobs keep going.

 

[1270d]

I think the tethering thing is cool for the sake of advancing technology. On the other hand you lose jobs in the industry. On another hand how many guys really want to work hard anymore? That's a big problem on this side. Getting fresh faces in the woods who know how to work smart, efficient, and can handle the daily wear and tear. Personally I think it's stupid finding more and more expensive ways to cut less and less expensive wood. One of the two other hand cutting crews I know of in the area just went mechanized. The other crew only work half the year and are hacks. When I told my wife he bought a processor the first thing she's says is "he caved huh?" That's the way I think about it. My skidder has been paid for for three years now and the only electrical on it runs through the batteries, starter, alternator, and heater. Here if you buy a processor plan on a double bunk and a truck. There's no way around it. The pulp market is good for **** too and this year has been a wet one. Maybe when I'm old and worn out I will go mechanized, but I just don't see making any money. Mills do have more wiggle room on price when you get to know them and you're not just Joe blow off the street. My Mills owner told me he would rather see a loss then lose out on purchasing logs. At least the mill keeps moving and jobs keep going.

We wouldn't be nearly as mechanized if the type of timber you have existed up here. It used to, back in those days a guy could buy a new skidder and pay it off in a couple years. Now it's like mowing grass at 40+ acres a week for our little crew. Most of the commercial timberland is owned by investment groups that demand higher and higher returns. Only way to provide those returns is to cut smaller and smaller diameter logs. So we do.

 

[madhatte]

How large are you thinking? Say a 7000 sized head will process up to a 26" tree I'd get it in the clam, bring it up to the landing depending on size either get the head on the log and basically walk it down the log to process or hand buck till I got to a processable size.

26" is common enough. I've definitely seen good wood longbutted and left in the sticks because the mill wouldn't take oversize. I'm OK with that; it counts toward coarse woody accumulation. God knows I don't want to piss off the spotted owl folks.

 

[Skeans]

Here's some of how we've done thinning past vs now, the first picture is of a stand we've gone through 3 or 4 times the others are of what we're doing now with a forwarder and fixed grapple cat.

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[madhatte]

Ah, good clean work. Looks like the landowner missed the first precommercial thinning window but this'll put everything back on track.

 

[Skeans]

Ah, good clean work. Looks like the landowner missed the first precommercial thinning window but this'll put everything back on track.

This is my own personal land we have 1000 acres out here but we've been busy and have too many thinning we have to get caught up on.

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[bitzer]

We wouldn't be nearly as mechanized if the type of timber you have existed up here. It used to, back in those days a guy could buy a new skidder and pay it off in a couple years. Now it's like mowing grass at 40+ acres a week for our little crew. Most of the commercial timberland is owned by investment groups that demand higher and higher returns. Only way to provide those returns is to cut smaller and smaller diameter logs. So we do.

Yeah I know. If you don't have the size wood to support it it doesn't work. I get that. Hand cutting pulp is like banging your head against a wall. I hate doing it but the sawlogs keep the rest moving. It's kind of like where does it stop? I've had talks with several big farms in the area and they have kind of the same thing going. It's either go huge or quit. 1000 cows and 23 hour milking isn't enough. And you need the big equipment and a 1000 acres to run crops on to feed em, etc etc etc. And for what? 1.99 a gallon milk at the store?

 

[northmanlogging]

I'm guilty of looking at the little processor heads that will fit a 120... log max 5000? I think... Smaller wood seems to be the thing lately, mills are taking down to 5-6" and hand limbing that mess is a nightmare. (most of what I cut ends up 8" or better... but any market you can get right)

not to mention pulping whats left would make the land owners a wee bit happier. Though most want the firewood out of whats left.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I was told up where you guys are it's cheaper to have a guy in a buncher cutting an hour then having a certified faller is that true?

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Yes but don't tell anybody OK?
..lol.
If you mean owner operator rate? That could be at times. Lots of loggers in the interior dry belts have bunchers, trucks and woodlots. Sometimes the gov won't let them cut for a few years in their woodlots? Maybe they took too much or had to due to pine beetle? Very high fuel VS Price. Interior Logging as well G&O is much different because you have to wait to end of may early june for the frost to come out of the ground so they will lift the 1 ton vehicle max road bans. Then they will go balls to the wall and hope for no fire shutdown. Then wait for freeze up. So they don't Punch the roads out before they start. At that time they would go all winter but some areas crashed compared to what they were a few for years. A guys got to get something on. Possibly a guy will run a machine for 80 per hour fuel payed 8-10 hours a day if he's getting desperate and doesn't want to take a seat for? 27-37
It's hard to think of a buncher by the hour.
Oil companies or prime contractor in the patch may sometimes hire by the hour if they are made to salvage and wood is of small amounts. If the prime contractor is on turn-key then good chance so is the logging, mulching and snagging/slashing but definitely always the loggers. The wood is a big headache in right of way construction unless they use it for rip-rap in the muskeg areas. So It works out well I'm sure for loggers as long as they get the decks prosesed and gone out of the 'extra work area's.

Guy I knew that had his bucket on for $220 per hour about 8 years ago.
When they can't find someone to fill a seat or they run out of thier own iron then that's what will happen.
G&O would be the best price.
A Welder & truck $1200 per day for pipe ticket and welds can pass X-ray. Down in the lower mainland maybe 37 working for someone doing structural.
Pipe fitter, helper and picker service truck is about $120. Bucket truck is about 130
Best operators rate in the pipeline was about 43 in a hoe a few years ago.
Works out good for them as it's at 12 hour a day. From a 7am saftey meeting then travel. Likely start tracking back at 4:30 - 5:00. They have been getting $150 a day for their trucks long as I can remember back 12 years ago.
Over 8 h is OT at about $65per hour, over 12 is double. Every operater gets a jump hour. You go by weekly OT though... Over 40h in BC & 44 in AB is OT.
It works out about 6 hours per day will be at 65 and 6 h at 43 and the jump hour is about $86. You work at least 28 day shift. Winter work guys used to do 130 day approx straight to break-up.
Based on a 7 day week average hourly could be about 54 average ×12 +86 +150. Worked it out in my head and it looks like its $884. per day.
Lots have a trailer they can stay in and get another $150 subsidiary. ("Sub" / LOA)
Trucks, UTV/ATV/snowmobile,saw hire, are all separate checks tax free.
Camp can be $220-$320 per man.

Having said that, A native cat operater was getting $20 per hour on a big Seismic job 3 winters ago.
That's treaty 8 reserve areas from greedy native contractors. I was getting $500 contract with out rentals (truck/snowmobile) with a two day Assessor's ticket and I could bypass the agreement and contract because I was "specialized"
to tie ribbons for a couple fallers chasing me. Their wages ranged from 400- $475 wage ++ for some.


It's really all over the map for different industries, skill set, area & activity.
Contract Inlet production faller
$650 - 700 day rate 6.5h

$100 - $107 per hour
$275 break-in rate.
I got offered to go for free on a 2 faller show east side island second growth fir. Just trading off with his saw.
Free private lessons from a 40 yrs coast vet 20 yrs ago. It was a start after five years of snagging on thinning jobs without much of any guidance.
Some companies were paying 450 to 550 for long time town work
for production. Some max rate.

On the lower mainland it's 85-$90 per h with 4 hour min for property developments and what not.
You can work 8 hours if you want. There is more time filing in the day.

-Fire- Contract faller with wildlife & wildland danger tree Assessor's is $850-900 but up to 1200 with truck & saws. Based on 12 hour day.

-Seismic: : 400-450 wage, truck:125-150, trailer, O-50, UTV 125-150 & snowmobile 100-125.
Turn-key: 500-1000 for high-baller

Fall & burn Pine Beetle control? Bunchers took all the cream access sites with all the numbers so we get the spread out first growth pipes in the openings of Aspen & cotton with coast like branches for the same price as always. It's too bad they could not have calculated a volume of an average and payed by that and location as well the consentration.

-Tree company 25h cash
-Utility 25h + 40 LOA
-Railway 25 + 100 UTV maybe.











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[madhatte]

This is my own personal land we have 1000 acres out here but we've been busy and have too many thinning we have to get caught up on.

I know that routine all too well. We just did a first entry thin on a unit planted in 1982. It was DARK in there. Not sure how it got missed, but that's how it goes.