Soft maple log hunting cabin

[Hunt4lumber]

Hi all. Been busy cutting firewood and want to build a small hunting cabin on our property using available small(8" diameter trees)to build a "butt and pass "style cabin. I read a previously posted same subject from 2010 but it abruptly ended without showing results from the member (frogy)- I sent him a PM to see if he's still around -so I figured I'd start a new thread here and see if anyone can tell me when the best time to cut them down and how long they need to sit before debarking and building?
( I did read a few important things to do or keep it approximately one and a half to 2 ft above the ground, overhangs of 3 ft and possibly keep it in the shade and obviously reseal the wood accordingly and make sure the roof is good( I would be using a steel roof)

 

[Hunt4lumber]

Hi all. Been busy cutting firewood and want to build a small hunting cabin on our property using available small(8" diameter trees)to build a "butt and pass "style cabin. I read a previously posted same subject from 2010 but it abruptly ended without showing results from the member (frogy)- I sent him a PM to see if he's still around -so I figured I'd start a new thread here and see if anyone can tell me when the best time to cut them down and how long they need to sit before debarking and building?
( I did read a few important things to do or keep it approximately one and a half to 2 ft above the ground, overhangs of 3 ft and possibly keep it in the shade and obviously reseal the wood accordingly and make sure the roof is good( I would be using a steel roof)

Is any one out there?

 

[Mad Professor]

Hi all. Been busy cutting firewood and want to build a small hunting cabin on our property using available small(8" diameter trees)to build a "butt and pass "style cabin. I read a previously posted same subject from 2010 but it abruptly ended without showing results from the member (frogy)- I sent him a PM to see if he's still around -so I figured I'd start a new thread here and see if anyone can tell me when the best time to cut them down and how long they need to sit before debarking and building?
( I did read a few important things to do or keep it approximately one and a half to 2 ft above the ground, overhangs of 3 ft and possibly keep it in the shade and obviously reseal the wood accordingly and make sure the roof is good( I would be using a steel roof)

I'm a fan of timber framing.

Explain what you mean by "butt and pass"?

Best time to cut is when dormant and low moisture content. Debark them green then stack and cover them. Bark will invite bugs. Might want to spray /treat them for bugs. Borates work and relatively non toxic. You can make your own. I think powder post beetles will go into maple.

The logs shrink more in width than length when drying, so that is consideration, and also effects the shrinkage effect upon the building method.

A good place for reference and to ask questions is The Forestry Forum, Timber Framing and Log Construction .

 

[Hunt4lumber]

Okay thanks for the information. I posted on where you said to about this cabin build but no one has replied yet since Monday

 

[Mad Professor]

Okay thanks for the information. I posted on where you said to about this cabin build but no one has replied yet since Monday

Where did you post it? I don't see it.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?board=11.0

 

[Hunt4lumber]

Where did you post it? I don't see it.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?board=11.0

Oh that's a completely different forum?( I posted in "forestry" on here

 

[Mad Professor]

Oh that's a completely different forum?( I posted in "forestry" on here

That forum deals with timber framing and log cabin construction. There are also drying and processing forum that may be another place to ask about drying your logs.

 

[buzz sawyer]

I'm a fan of timber framing.

Explain what you mean by "butt and pass"?

Best time to cut is when dormant and low moisture content. Debark them green then stack and cover them. Bark will invite bugs. Might want to spray /treat them for bugs. Borates work and relatively non toxic. You can make your own. I think powder post beetles will go into maple.

The logs shrink more in width than length when drying, so that is consideration, and also effects the shrinkage effect upon the building method.

A good place for reference and to ask questions is The Forestry Forum, Timber Framing and Log Construction .

Powder post beetles will absolutely go into soft maple.

 

[Hunt4lumber]

Okay, I'm thinking of putting this product called Cedar Side wood penetrator on them first before sealing them with bug deterrent/killer wood sealant

 

[Mad Professor]

Okay, I'm thinking of putting this product called Cedar Side wood penetrator on them first before sealing them with bug deterrent/killer wood sealant

If you cover the pile on top, to keep rain off, a borate solution will keep bugs out if you treat before they get in. There are recipes how to make this up from powdered borax. It's relatively non-toxic unless you drink it. Borate solutions are used for eye washes and an ingredient in @Visene. I'd save the cedar cide until you treat the inside of the cabin, it will smell nice.

PPBs will be an issue with maple. You'll find tiny holes with fine dust like frass emanating from the holes..

Did you find the forum I suggested? The Moderator there, Jim Rogers, is a good guy.

Again, what is the term "butt and pass" refer to in reference to log building?

 

[Hunt4lumber]

I'm hoping that by treating them that I won't have an issue with powder post Beatles. I just need to find the correct procedure. Yes I did find it and saw his name there, I'm just waiting on him to approve me to post. I wonder if powderpost beetles is what has gotten into my wood pile that is mostly black cherry ? I see what you're talking about with tiny holes and powdery Sawdust looking stuff) it doesn't matter a whole lot whether they are or not in that wood pile to me because I have an outdoor wood burner that I used to heat our house so the wood doesn't come inside anyways but I've been wondering what bug is in it. much

 

[Stubby]

Again, what is the term "butt and pass" refer to in reference to log building?

Here's a little info on that...

https://www.logcabinhub.com/butt-and-pass-log-cabin/

http://www.dirtcheapbuilder.com/Articles/Log_Homes_Butt_and_Pass.htm

Rich

 

[Mad Professor]

Here's a little info on that...

https://www.logcabinhub.com/butt-and-pass-log-cabin/

http://www.dirtcheapbuilder.com/Articles/Log_Homes_Butt_and_Pass.htm

Rich

Thanks @Stubby , I'm already into reading the links.

I was taught traditional scribe rule timber framing by Richard ( sure to be censored) "****" Babcock. No tapes/rulers/squares needed. Layouts with a compass/divider, chalk line, and plumb bob.

I watched ****/learned how to, make a log into a square timber.




Can use irregular timbers/stock, here is a 1 1 root 2/45 degree brace, laid out with a divider.

 

[Mad Professor]

I've read a little on the "butt and pass" method of log building.

A method that eliminates the need for notches at the corners to tie the logs together, but requires rebar to hold the logs in place. Looks to be quicker, eliminates scribing the logs then cutting the notches.

I've read a lot about traditional log building, and types of joinery/notches used on the corners

Need to read more about butt and pass. Thanks for showing me the technique.

The considerations for the logs should be the same either way.

I'm hoping that by treating them that I won't have an issue with powder post Beatles. I just need to find the correct procedure. Yes I did find it and saw his name there, I'm just waiting on him to approve me to post. I wonder if powderpost beetles is what has gotten into my wood pile that is mostly black cherry ? I see what you're talking about with tiny holes and powdery Sawdust looking stuff) it doesn't matter a whole lot whether they are or not in that wood pile to me because I have an outdoor wood burner that I used to heat our house so the wood doesn't come inside anyways but I've been wondering what bug is in it. much

I've not had troubles with PPB in cherry, but they love maple and ash.

You should be able to find recipes to make borate solutions to treat wood/lumber. Search here, forestry forum, and another good site to bookmark The Woodweb.com

This won't kill bugs already in the wood, but will prevent further infestations. Works on lots of different insects, kills ants, termites. Disadvantage is it will wash off, so treated wood needs to be covered from weather.

https://woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Mixing_Borate_to_Control_Post_Beetles.html

"I'll stick to the home chemistry part of the question. If you want to use boric acid it takes borax and boric acid combined to make DOT, the borate you want. The U.S. Navy spec. is 60% borax-40% boric acid (this ratio gives the maximum solubility of borates in water). To make this solution mix 65% water, 20% borax, 15% boric acid and heat until dissolved. I don't do it that way myself, I like the easy way. I buy 50 lb sacks of Solubor and mix at a rate of 1 lb/gallon of water for a 10% solution. At 1.5 lb/gallon it’s a 15% saturated solution that is stronger but will crystallize overnight so it must be used up when you mix it and clean up any spray equipment really well."

Besides specific wood formulas below, borates are used in agriculture so farm supply stores may carry suitable products that can be used on wood.

https://www.borax.com/products/applications/wood-protection-biocides

https://www.borax.com/products/tim-bor

Not very toxic, Timbor MSDS:

Tim-bor®
Section 2. Hazards identification
Prevention : Do not handle until all safety precautions have been read and understood.
Response : IF exposed or concerned: Get medical advice/attention.
Storage : Not applicable.
Disposal : Dispose of contents/container in accordance with local regulation.
Hazards not otherwise
classified
: None known.
Section 3. Composition/information on ingredients
Chemical name : Disodium octaborate tetrahydrate
Substance/mixture
CAS number/other identifiers
:
Occupational exposure limits, if available, are listed in Section 8.
Substance
Any concentration shown as a range is to protect confidentiality or is due to batch variation.
CAS number : 12280-03-4
There are no ingredients present which, within the current knowledge of the supplier and in the concentrations
applicable, are classified and hence require reporting in this section.
Ingredient name CAS number%
Disodium octaborate tetrahydrate >98 12280-03-4

Swallowing small quantities (one teaspoon) will cause no harm to healthy adults. If larger
amounts are swallowed, give two glasses of water to drink and seek medical attention.

Use eye wash fountain or fresh water to cleanse the eye. If irritation persists for more
than 30 minutes, seek medical attention.
No treatment necessary.

If symptoms such as nose or throat irritation are observed, remove to fresh air.
Section 4. First aid measures
Eye contact
Skin contact
Inhalation
Ingestion :
:
Description of necessary first aid measures
Most important symptoms/effects, acute and delayed

Inhalation : No known significant effects or critical hazards.
This product is not intended for ingestion. Small amounts (e.g., a teaspoon) swallowed
accidentally are not likely to cause effects; swallowing amounts larger than that may
cause gastrointestinal symptoms. Symptoms of accidental over-exposure to high doses
of inorganic borate salts have been associated with ingestion or absorption through large
areas of severely damaged skin. These may include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea,
with delayed effects of skin redness and peeling.

:Ingestion
Skin contact : Symptoms of accidental over-exposure to high doses of inorganic borate salts have
been associated with ingestion or absorption through large areas of severely damaged
skin. These may include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea, with delayed effects of skin
redness and peeling.
No known significant effects or critical hazards.
:Eye contact

Over-exposure signs/symptoms

Inhalation No known significant effects or critical hazards.:

Eye contact : No known significant effects or critical haz

 

[Hunt4lumber]

I've read a little on the "butt and pass" method of log building.

A method that eliminates the need for notches at the corners to tie the logs together, but requires rebar to hold the logs in place. Looks to be quicker, eliminates scribing the logs then cutting the notches.

I've read a lot about traditional log building, and types of joinery/notches used on the corners

Need to read more about butt and pass. Thanks for showing me the technique.

The considerations for the logs should be the same either way.



I've not had troubles with PPB in cherry, but they love maple and ash.

You should be able to find recipes to make borate solutions to treat wood/lumber. Search here, forestry forum, and another good site to bookmark The Woodweb.com

This won't kill bugs already in the wood, but will prevent further infestations. Works on lots of different insects, kills ants, termites. Disadvantage is it will wash off, so treated wood needs to be covered from weather.

https://woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Mixing_Borate_to_Control_Post_Beetles.html

"I'll stick to the home chemistry part of the question. If you want to use boric acid it takes borax and boric acid combined to make DOT, the borate you want. The U.S. Navy spec. is 60% borax-40% boric acid (this ratio gives the maximum solubility of borates in water). To make this solution mix 65% water, 20% borax, 15% boric acid and heat until dissolved. I don't do it that way myself, I like the easy way. I buy 50 lb sacks of Solubor and mix at a rate of 1 lb/gallon of water for a 10% solution. At 1.5 lb/gallon it’s a 15% saturated solution that is stronger but will crystallize overnight so it must be used up when you mix it and clean up any spray equipment really well."

Besides specific wood formulas below, borates are used in agriculture so farm supply stores may carry suitable products that can be used on wood.

https://www.borax.com/products/applications/wood-protection-biocides

https://www.borax.com/products/tim-bor

Not very toxic, Timbor MSDS:

Tim-bor®
Section 2. Hazards identification
Prevention : Do not handle until all safety precautions have been read and understood.
Response : IF exposed or concerned: Get medical advice/attention.
Storage : Not applicable.
Disposal : Dispose of contents/container in accordance with local regulation.
Hazards not otherwise
classified
: None known.
Section 3. Composition/information on ingredients
Chemical name : Disodium octaborate tetrahydrate
Substance/mixture
CAS number/other identifiers
:
Occupational exposure limits, if available, are listed in Section 8.
Substance
Any concentration shown as a range is to protect confidentiality or is due to batch variation.
CAS number : 12280-03-4
There are no ingredients present which, within the current knowledge of the supplier and in the concentrations
applicable, are classified and hence require reporting in this section.
Ingredient name CAS number%
Disodium octaborate tetrahydrate >98 12280-03-4

Swallowing small quantities (one teaspoon) will cause no harm to healthy adults. If larger
amounts are swallowed, give two glasses of water to drink and seek medical attention.

Use eye wash fountain or fresh water to cleanse the eye. If irritation persists for more
than 30 minutes, seek medical attention.
No treatment necessary.

If symptoms such as nose or throat irritation are observed, remove to fresh air.
Section 4. First aid measures
Eye contact
Skin contact
Inhalation
Ingestion :
:
Description of necessary first aid measures
Most important symptoms/effects, acute and delayed

Inhalation : No known significant effects or critical hazards.
This product is not intended for ingestion. Small amounts (e.g., a teaspoon) swallowed
accidentally are not likely to cause effects; swallowing amounts larger than that may
cause gastrointestinal symptoms. Symptoms of accidental over-exposure to high doses
of inorganic borate salts have been associated with ingestion or absorption through large
areas of severely damaged skin. These may include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea,
with delayed effects of skin redness and peeling.

:Ingestion
Skin contact : Symptoms of accidental over-exposure to high doses of inorganic borate salts have
been associated with ingestion or absorption through large areas of severely damaged
skin. These may include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea, with delayed effects of skin
redness and peeling.
No known significant effects or critical hazards.
:Eye contact

Over-exposure signs/symptoms

Inhalation No known significant effects or critical hazards.:

Eye contact : No known significant effects or critical haz

Thanks for the info, so when you say you like to take the easy way and use "solubor"
You have used this on logs to treat them with good results and does this product last once I put stain over top of it?

 

[Mad Professor]

Thanks for the info, so when you say you like to take the easy way and use "solubor"
You have used this on logs to treat them with good results and does this product last once I put stain over top of it?

It's already mixed in proper proportions. I believe that applies to agricultural mix too.

You can make your own with boric acid and laundry borax. You can price them out and see what is available, vs the commercial mixtures.

The links I posted will answer all your questions. Woodweb in particular. Search on borate solution.

Some reading just today mentioned penetration is better on green wood. You can spray the logs before barking to keep bugs out, or peel them green and treat them.

 

[Hunt4lumber]

Okay, great. I would rather treat them immediately in the winter anyways because I'm just now going to start cutting trees down because I read that it's the best time to do so for many reasons. Is the thought process that this Cedar Side is not viable? I've used this brand on our outside dog for flea and tick protection and it works great. The company says I can spray or roll it on to the lugs like with a paint roller and it can be applied immediately after debarking to the green logs

 

[Hunt4lumber]

Okay, great. I would rather treat them immediately in the winter anyways because I'm just now going to start cutting trees down because I read that it's the best time to do so for many reasons. Is the thought process that this Cedar Side is not viable? I've used this brand on our outside dog for flea and tick protection and it works great. The company says I can spray or roll it on to the lugs like with a paint roller and it can be applied immediately after debarking to the green logs

Obviously the animal liquid is different than the wood penetrant

 

[sean donato]

I've read a little on the "butt and pass" method of log building.

A method that eliminates the need for notches at the corners to tie the logs together, but requires rebar to hold the logs in place. Looks to be quicker, eliminates scribing the logs then cutting the notches.

I've read a lot about traditional log building, and types of joinery/notches used on the corners

Need to read more about butt and pass. Thanks for showing me the technique.

The considerations for the logs should be the same either way.



I've not had troubles with PPB in cherry, but they love maple and ash.

You should be able to find recipes to make borate solutions to treat wood/lumber. Search here, forestry forum, and another good site to bookmark The Woodweb.com

This won't kill bugs already in the wood, but will prevent further infestations. Works on lots of different insects, kills ants, termites. Disadvantage is it will wash off, so treated wood needs to be covered from weather.

https://woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Mixing_Borate_to_Control_Post_Beetles.html

"I'll stick to the home chemistry part of the question. If you want to use boric acid it takes borax and boric acid combined to make DOT, the borate you want. The U.S. Navy spec. is 60% borax-40% boric acid (this ratio gives the maximum solubility of borates in water). To make this solution mix 65% water, 20% borax, 15% boric acid and heat until dissolved. I don't do it that way myself, I like the easy way. I buy 50 lb sacks of Solubor and mix at a rate of 1 lb/gallon of water for a 10% solution. At 1.5 lb/gallon it’s a 15% saturated solution that is stronger but will crystallize overnight so it must be used up when you mix it and clean up any spray equipment really well."

Besides specific wood formulas below, borates are used in agriculture so farm supply stores may carry suitable products that can be used on wood.

https://www.borax.com/products/applications/wood-protection-biocides

https://www.borax.com/products/tim-bor

Not very toxic, Timbor MSDS:

Tim-bor®
Section 2. Hazards identification
Prevention : Do not handle until all safety precautions have been read and understood.
Response : IF exposed or concerned: Get medical advice/attention.
Storage : Not applicable.
Disposal : Dispose of contents/container in accordance with local regulation.
Hazards not otherwise
classified
: None known.
Section 3. Composition/information on ingredients
Chemical name : Disodium octaborate tetrahydrate
Substance/mixture
CAS number/other identifiers
:
Occupational exposure limits, if available, are listed in Section 8.
Substance
Any concentration shown as a range is to protect confidentiality or is due to batch variation.
CAS number : 12280-03-4
There are no ingredients present which, within the current knowledge of the supplier and in the concentrations
applicable, are classified and hence require reporting in this section.
Ingredient name CAS number%
Disodium octaborate tetrahydrate >98 12280-03-4

Swallowing small quantities (one teaspoon) will cause no harm to healthy adults. If larger
amounts are swallowed, give two glasses of water to drink and seek medical attention.

Use eye wash fountain or fresh water to cleanse the eye. If irritation persists for more
than 30 minutes, seek medical attention.
No treatment necessary.

If symptoms such as nose or throat irritation are observed, remove to fresh air.
Section 4. First aid measures
Eye contact
Skin contact
Inhalation
Ingestion :
:
Description of necessary first aid measures
Most important symptoms/effects, acute and delayed

Inhalation : No known significant effects or critical hazards.
This product is not intended for ingestion. Small amounts (e.g., a teaspoon) swallowed
accidentally are not likely to cause effects; swallowing amounts larger than that may
cause gastrointestinal symptoms. Symptoms of accidental over-exposure to high doses
of inorganic borate salts have been associated with ingestion or absorption through large
areas of severely damaged skin. These may include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea,
with delayed effects of skin redness and peeling.

:Ingestion
Skin contact : Symptoms of accidental over-exposure to high doses of inorganic borate salts have
been associated with ingestion or absorption through large areas of severely damaged
skin. These may include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea, with delayed effects of skin
redness and peeling.
No known significant effects or critical hazards.
:Eye contact

Over-exposure signs/symptoms

Inhalation No known significant effects or critical hazards.:

Eye contact : No known significant effects or critical haz

Good information. I used to mix my own to treat logs and lumber, but have since just been using timbor. Works just fine. Like you say the key is keeping it dry after application. Other wise it's just a waste

 

[Mad Professor]

Okay, great. I would rather treat them immediately in the winter anyways because I'm just now going to start cutting trees down because I read that it's the best time to do so for many reasons. Is the thought process that this Cedar Side is not viable? I've used this brand on our outside dog for flea and tick protection and it works great. The company says I can spray or roll it on to the lugs like with a paint roller and it can be applied immediately after debarking to the green logs

You'll go broke using cedar cide treating logs for a whole cabin. I've used to use it on me, and also on/around tables/picnic tables to keep away the flies and skeeters.

I'd save that for after it's built/roofed and do the inside. Your choice.