Steep hourly charge in MA and looking for thoughts

[danf26]

Hey guys,

Thanks for everyone's input with the question I asked about my driveway being too narrow for a mill or not. Since I last posted here, I've skidded and stacked between 35 and 40 logs next to the driveway, in anticipation for them to be hauled off to a mill soon.

I had been talking to a sawyer about milling with him, but yesterday he told me what he charges and I felt astounded. He said he charges by the hour, and its $100 an hour. It doesnt add up to me. He's running a Woodmizer, which I dont know. I have between 3000 and 4000 board feet by my estimates, and if its just him and me running the mill, I cant imagine hes cranking out more than 300 board feet an hour, at best. So, thats $333 per 1000 board feet, at absolute top capacity. Or a little less than $0.35 per board foot. But the much more likely scenario is we're only going thru 200 board feet an hour, thats $500 per thousand board feet, or $0.50 per board foot.

$0.50 a board foot seems incredibly expensive considering I've skidded the logs out myself, will be paying to haul the logs to him, will myself be his second man on the job while we're milling, and then trucking them back to my property. I am waiting to hear back from him to ask him myself, but I can see any justifications for such a steep price. It seems like I must just be getting ripped off.

I know just an hour or two north of me the going rate is $0.25 a board foot, or $40 an hour tops. Plus, there's a sawyer I know in my same town (backed up with work for a month and half), who's charging $60 an hour. Still sounds steep to me, but almost half what the other man is charging?

Any thoughts? I wont mill this wood with anyone but a local sawyer, but I'm living off of savings here, and am feeling taken advantage of. What all do you think?

 

[mtngun]

Most sawyers seem to charge by the BF if the logs are decent, but if they don't like the logs, they may feel safer charging by the hour.

I've heard as low as 20 cents to as high as 50 cents, depending on the area. And that's usually driving to the customer's site !

Well, there is nothing you can do about the local sawyers, they are what they are.

This sounded like a good plan until you got to the $100/hour part.

 

[betterbuilt]

Try giving Woodmiser and some of the sawmill companys a call. They should be able to give you the names and numbers of the mills in your area.

$100 an hour is crazy but. I hired a guy once that was so fast that $100 wouldn't have been bad. You could ask the guy how many board feet he can make in an hour. He might have and edger and other tools at his disposal to make things faster.

What a pain. Don't give up you'll figure it out.

 

[tjbier]

If he wants that price can you work with him to maximize his time? By that meaning, you moving all the cut wood so he can stay with the machine and get the next cut going while you haul the wood off the machine.. that seems like the greatest time killer.

I've talked to guy who might give a $500-800 per day rate or $.35c a board foot.

 

[les-or-more]

The amish around here were only charging $75 a thousand last summer. They were cheaper than I could buy the bands for our mill so I had them saw for me.

 

[Dalmatian90]

. He said he charges by the hour, and its $100 an hour. It doesnt add up to me. He's running a Woodmizer, which I dont know. I have between 3000 and 4000 board feet by my estimates, and if its just him and me running the mill, I cant imagine hes cranking out more than 300 board feet an hour, at best. So, thats $333 per 1000 board feet, at absolute top capacity. Or a little less than $0.35 per board foot. But the much more likely scenario is we're only going thru 200 board feet an hour, thats $500 per thousand board feet, or $0.50 per board foot.

This is just something that interests me, so feel free to take everything I say with a grain of salt.

But if someone has a $15,000+ machine, and in addition to fuel and blades is also carrying full liability and possibly worker's comp (which you might be even if you're "volunteering" to help him), possibly personal property taxes (not sure if they're assessed or not in Massachusetts), the $100/hour doesn't even cause me to bat an eye.

Folks charge $35/hour to run a decent log splitter.

A bit of googling on wood-mizer cost per board foot I found this:

he bigger mills even have hydraulics to turn and level your logs, dramatically improving productivity. One Internet discussion suggested that $55 to $75 per hour (plus blades) was a common price for the mid-size Woodmizer LT40 hydraulic unit. Another person who had logs arranged and provided helpers found that the high-end Woodmizer LT70 averaged 600 board-feet per hour. This suggests a cost as low as 10 cents per board foot, but more often you should plan on 25 to 50 cents per board foot for sawing.

Cut your own Lumber at www.plesums.com/wood

So while he's on the high side, he doesn't seem to be out of line.

I reckon it makes a difference how well he's setup too -- if it's a $100 an hour but he has a nice log deck, tractor that can handle the logs to stage them on the deck, and a shelter over the mill so you keep working in the rain...that could be a lot more efficient then the $35/hour guy whose not carrying insurance, takes longer to get logs setup, and after you drove two hours to Vermont to help him it starts raining at noon and you have to call it a day.

 

[danf26]

Ok guys, thanks for all your feedback today. The decision is narrowed down to two mills, including, believe it or not, the mill originally mentioned in the post. Im hoping to decide tonight.

Caution to whomever reads this: Part of me posting is it helps me think, so you'll read a lot of thinking out loud. Im not asking for anyone to decide for me, if no one were to reply to this post, I still would be getting something from posting it. If anyone does choose to throw in their 2 cents (or more), I wouldnt appreciate it more.

The sawyer running the portable mill is charging $100 an hour. He says at top capacity he can go thru 400 BF/hr., but I should probably think of it at 300 BF/hr. If he does get 300 BF/hr., then thats $0.33 per BF. If Im thinking I have between 3000 and 4000 BF, then we're looking at $990 and $1320 respectively, we can say $1500 to play it safe, but hopefully its faster than that. He's also charging $150 for use of his forwarder, and $50 for his tractor, and $30 per blade. To haul the logs to him, I'd be paying $250 per load, and there's probably one loads worth in there, maybe 2. I would need to rent a trailer ($75 a day), borrow a friends truck, and haul the finished lumber back myself. So, we're talking an estimate of around $1500(milling estimate high)+$150(tractor and forwarder)+$250(safe estimate hauling logs to him)+$225(3 days with trailer), and thats $2125. Could be lower if milling takes less time, could be higher if its 2 loads of logs, not one.

Not far from that sawyer, is a stationary production mill with the whole set up. They run an "energy-efficient computer-controlled linebar resaw" (I have no idea what that is) and charge not by the hour, but a flat rate of $0.33/BF. So, the prices are the same, the difference being while the above sawyers $0.33/BF is inferred, this mill wont vary from that. They can pick up, and re-deliver the finished lumber themselves, $150 each way. So, with them depending on how much board footage, Im looking at between $1290 and $1620.

The latter mill would be more convenient and I can be more certain as to what price to expect, but Im worried I wont get the logs I need. Maybe the fear is uncalled for. Each log has written on both ends (with Sharpie), what I want from the log, whether its an 8x8, 8x10, or as many 2x12 joists as possible. So I guess that all should be pretty straight forward. As long as I take a good tally of what I have written before they pick up the logs, I should know exactly what I'll be getting back. Right? Otherwise, with the bandsaw sawyer, I would see each log as it got milled, and be able to know exactly what was coming off, and make decisions on the spot, if we found rot or if there was too much curve, etc.

I heard the previous owner of this land sometimes put nails in trees just so they would never be sawed. $30 a blade isn't horrible for the bandsaw, but what if the other sawyer hits hardware? How deep would I be in then?

How do folks out there feel about supporting a local sawyer running a bandsaw versus a local sawyer with a big production business?

Well, I hope to be deciding tonight. The thinking continues.

 

[mtngun]

How do folks out there feel about supporting a local sawyer running a bandsaw versus a local sawyer with a big production business?

OK, I misunderstood your original post, I thought you were hauling the logs to the $100/hour guy. If he's coming to you, that is worth something.

It's still very high, and I'm wondering why he insists on an hourly charge -- maybe he is suspicious of your logs, or maybe he's worried about hitting a lot of metal.

I agree with Dalmation90 that $50 an hour is quite reasonable, even cheap, for a skilled person with a spendy machine. $100 is pushing it. But, sounds like there is not much competition in your neighborhood, so you gotta seriously consider him.

All I can say is get everything ready for him ahead of time, because the clock will be ticking.

 

[gemniii]

When you start to compare "labor rates" you need to take into account relative income level and employment/unemployment of people in the area.
Examples-
3 "cities" - Alexandria, Va where I live, Wendell, MA where the OP is, and Fulton, MS where I plan on retiring. (Data from www.city-data.com)

Median household income 2009/unemployment rate 2009-2010
Alexandria, VA - $77,095 / 4.8% - 4.4%
Wendell, MA - $52,753 / 7.2% - 8.9%
Fulton, MS - $25,294 / 12%-10.6%

Thus I would expect labor prices and demand for "skilled labor" to be a lot higher here (which they are) for "skilled labor" than in Fulton, where wages are low and unemployment high. The OP's area is in between. (That's one reason I don't plan on retiring to my land in Vt., where income is about $60K and unemployment <2%).

It seems that $100/ hour NOW is not outrageous especially if the OP could instead wait a month and a half for $60/ hour.

But beyond that I'd recommend the OP go with the fixed sawyer and try to go with the trees to see them cut.

 

[danf26]

OK, I misunderstood your original post, I thought you were hauling the logs to the $100/hour guy. If he's coming to you, that is worth something.

Nope, the idea has always been to haul to him.

I am leaning towards the fixed sawyer, thinking thats simplest and best. No final word yet, though . . .

Thanks all.