Stihl MS261 C-M 3/8 Chain?

[MCW]

Another thing for the OP to remember is that there is a difference between speed in a single cut and speed as far as production numbers go at the end of the day. For example where I am the timber I cut is generally pretty abrasive and gets pretty dusty. I mainly cut hardwood. I've done the numbers between .325" which cuts well and standard 3/8". For half an hour I'd be happy to use .325" but after 8 hours I will be well in front with 3/8" due to a lot less sharpenings. In a clean, green forest with smaller saws I'd be happy to run .325". If you have the slightest bit of dirt go 3/8". The good thing with the strato 261's is that they have bulk torque and actually perform more like an old school 65cc saw in the cut. They punch well above their weight for a 50cc saw. The only downside to stock 261's is their sluggish off idle throttle response which is why I got rid of mine and purchased a Husky 550XP. The filtration and the option of dual spikes on the 261 was way better than the 550. Most of my work in smaller trees now is done with an MS241C which leads me to another interesting point. In a single cut the 550XP will thump the 241C by 20-25%. By the end of the day however I have 10% more trees on the ground with the 241C simply due to fuel efficiency. Speed in a single cut means little by the end of the day as there are way more factors to consider.
If you are cutting downed logs with a bit of dirt on them with maybe the odd chance of digging the nose into the ground then go 3/8" (not 3/8"LP) for sure.

 

[BKrusher]

What I meant by "over revving" was it had been posted on AS that .325 chain will not stay in the recommened rpm range or powerband while cutting with a modded 50cc saw...I'm not gonna go looking for the thread cause I could care less who's opinion it was...which got me thinking. So I asked a builder.... Now the OP question is will 3/8 be too hard on a stock 50cc....which is a legitamite question. My point bringing up my example is to try things out for yourself if you can. IMO the opinion of 3/8 being the only way to go is posted so many times on AS its ridiculous. There are many reasons to go 3/8 and I understand this, but know why you need 3/8 in the first place. Nothing wrong with good old .325 in many instances IMO.

I don't do production logging all I do is cut firewood which is a big difference. The OP sounds like a firewood guy too maybe I'm wrong idk.

 

[wap13]

Another thing for the OP to remember is that there is a difference between speed in a single cut and speed as far as production numbers go at the end of the day. For example where I am the timber I cut is generally pretty abrasive and gets pretty dusty. I mainly cut hardwood. I've done the numbers between .325" which cuts well and standard 3/8". For half an hour I'd be happy to use .325" but after 8 hours I will be well in front with 3/8" due to a lot less sharpenings. In a clean, green forest with smaller saws I'd be happy to run .325". If you have the slightest bit of dirt go 3/8". The good thing with the strato 261's is that they have bulk torque and actually perform more like an old school 65cc saw in the cut. They punch well above their weight for a 50cc saw. The only downside to stock 261's is their sluggish off idle throttle response which is why I got rid of mine and purchased a Husky 550XP. The filtration and the option of dual spikes on the 261 was way better than the 550. Most of my work in smaller trees now is done with an MS241C which leads me to another interesting point. In a single cut the 550XP will thump the 241C by 20-25%. By the end of the day however I have 10% more trees on the ground with the 241C simply due to fuel efficiency. Speed in a single cut means little by the end of the day as there are way more factors to consider.
If you are cutting downed logs with a bit of dirt on them with maybe the odd chance of digging the nose into the ground then go 3/8" (not 3/8"LP) for sure.

Is that 241 still stock?

 

[MCW]

Is that 241 still stock?

Yeah still dead stock. Mastermind offered to mod it for me for free but at the time I needed it for the falling I was doing. Andrew (Stihlman441) had his modded by Randy instead. I've run that saw and it was a big improvement over stock but not sure if it would be any more efficient with certain jobs. Randy builds a good saw though and does tend to maintain a saw's efficiency compared to some other builders.

 

[wap13]

Yeah still dead stock. Mastermind offered to mod it for me for free but at the time I needed it for the falling I was doing. Andrew (Stihlman441) had his modded by Randy instead. I've run that saw and it was a big improvement over stock but not sure if it would be any more efficient with certain jobs. Randy builds a good saw though and does tend to maintain a saw's efficiency compared to some other builders.

(continuing the derail..)

Did you run Andrew's enough to tell how a ported 241 compared to a stock 550 or 261?

 

[MCW]

(continuing the derail..)

Did you run Andrew's enough to tell how a ported 241 compared to a stock 550 or 261?

Different saws for different jobs really. I doubt it would beat a 550 in a drag race or even a 261 but then again if you take into account the poor throttle response of a stock 261 it is probably a more user friendly saw. They are also considerably smaller than a 261 which is more like a baby hippo If I was cutting firewood I'd go for a 261, if I was limbing etc then a modded 241 would be my pick. The 261 I had never had a wow factor, it just did everything boringly well. The 241 does have a wow factor. Keep in mind too that I often do trees in built up areas so a quiet, stock saw is nice to have in the arsenal. You don't make many friends cranking up a ported saw in suburbia

 

[XSKIER]

Reminds me of that youtube video of the helmeted guy running a piped shindaiwa on an office building takedown. Sweet! I do appreciate a loud saw, but I've got no desire to own one.

 

[sunfish]

Different saws for different jobs really. I doubt it would beat a 550 in a drag race or even a 261 but then again if you take into account the poor throttle response of a stock 261 it is probably a more user friendly saw. They are also considerably smaller than a 261 which is more like a baby hippo If I was cutting firewood I'd go for a 261, if I was limbing etc then a modded 241 would be my pick. The 261 I had never had a wow factor, it just did everything boringly well. The 241 does have a wow factor. Keep in mind too that I often do trees in built up areas so a quiet, stock saw is nice to have in the arsenal. You don't make many friends cranking up a ported saw in suburbia

That is the best description I've heard for that saw! Not pokin fun, or sayin it's a bad saw, or anything like that...

Very well said!

 

[Philip Wheelock]

Local Stihl tech...recommended 20" and certainly no shorter than 18" for hardwood, for the reason that too short a bar and chain length wouldn't load the motor enough to keep it within the power band at WOT. Basically he was saying that the bottom end will last longer at 9500 rpm than 13000 rpm due to increased dynamic loads & heat...

Local Stihl tech needs to learn how to adjust the chain to suit the wood or how to put more pressure on a saw. If a stock MS440 can pull 13,000 in the cut, well it ain't cutting.

Local Stihl tech has a gold level Stihl factory certification. I suppose his opinion is just more poor advice on AS? Basic question remains: will a 70cc class bottom end last longer at 9500 rpm or 13000 rpm; yes or no?

 

[indiansprings]

We've got a **** pot full of 261's out with several firewood operations, including ours, the largest operation cuts in excess of a thousand cords and services the Table Rock area all the way to Branson, he runs a 460 and two MS261 set up with 18" 3/8 .063 set ups. This guy believes in fueling them,filling them with bar oil and running them, his help looks like they just left San Quentin, a rough bunch for sure. They have had no issues with their 261's. Our saw's are well maintained, one has been through two full seasons and has cut north of 200 cords, and no issues, in fact as a shop we have not had one issue with the 261's, I believe it is destined to be the new 028 of the Stihl line, built like a tank.
The only thing we watch for is they want to run 14,300 to 14,400 after being broke in, and we correct that when we do the free two gallon check up, just jerk the limiter with a drywall screw and dial them back to 13,850-13,900. Unless your just an idiot and file the rakers down to the bone or jerk the hell out of the saw when pinched I don't think you'll ever see a bearing issue under normal usage, given you using a top shelf mix. Stihl says the bearings are good to 20,000 rpm, and no that doesn't mean to go try and tune them to 20k.
A 261 is just fine with 3/8, personally we run ours with 18" .325 set ups, I have access to plenty of chain and plenty of time to sharpen them, we always go to the woods with 12 to 15 chains for each saw in the saw box. Just bought a 261CM to add to the two regulars, not running it though until it goes to Randy. I like working on clean saws and am sure he does too.

 

[MCW]

Local Stihl tech has a gold level Stihl factory certification. I suppose his opinion is just more poor advice on AS? Basic question remains: will a 70cc class bottom end last longer at 9500 rpm or 13000 rpm; yes or no?

There is no doubt that a saw's bottom end will last longer at 9,500rpm instead of 13,000rpm. I agree on that.
Now ask local Stihl tech how many 70cc stock saws will pull 13,000rpm in he cut. If he thinks they can then he needs to spend less time being technical and more time being practical - (unless he can somehow fit a 12" micro picco bar to them with skip chain somehow?). That was my point but can understand the original question.
All a gold level Stihl factory certification means is that he is good at fixing saws. Ask him how many 70cc Stihl saw bottom ends he's had to replace from pulling 13,000rpm in the cut. In fact ask him to ask Stihl the same question. Stihl have a good network and generally put things online for dealers if there is a known issue. When he finds the Stihl technote that outlines the 70cc saw pulling 13,000rpm in the cut bottom end problems get him to give you a copy and post it here.
His explanation is like having a question saying "Will my Toyota Prius driveshafts fall out if I pull 400mph?". Yes they probably will, but a Prius can't go that fast.
I know you probably think I'm being an anal smartarse but for crying out loud, think about what he said and then ask yourself what rpm's a 70cc saw pulls in the cut. My ported and pop upped 7900 will max out at about 11,000rpm, even with an 18" bar and factory chain.
Stihl Techs are trained to tune saws with a tach so there is a good chance they don't know what rpm's a saw pulls in the cut. A Gold Tech should however.

Another interesting question for your Stihl Tech is this:

What causes more damage to a 70cc saws bottom end. Cutting at 9,500rpm with a load, or cutting at 13,000rpm without a load? As mentioned if you can "cut" at 13,000rpm you have no load. I'm pretty sure your Stihl Tech said 13,000rpm for extra dramatic effect in his answer, I highly doubt he believes it.

 

[wap13]

Different saws for different jobs really. I doubt it would beat a 550 in a drag race or even a 261 but then again if you take into account the poor throttle response of a stock 261 it is probably a more user friendly saw. They are also considerably smaller than a 261 which is more like a baby hippo If I was cutting firewood I'd go for a 261, if I was limbing etc then a modded 241 would be my pick. The 261 I had never had a wow factor, it just did everything boringly well. The 241 does have a wow factor. Keep in mind too that I often do trees in built up areas so a quiet, stock saw is nice to have in the arsenal. You don't make many friends cranking up a ported saw in suburbia

Thanks for the info, thought of trying one out when they get to the sates but not sure if I really have a use for one.

 

[Philip Wheelock]

Local Stihl tech has a gold level Stihl factory certification... Basic question remains: will a 70cc class bottom end last longer at 9500 rpm or 13000 rpm...?

There is no doubt that a saw's bottom end will last longer at 9,500rpm instead of 13,000rpm...
Now ask local Stihl tech how many 70cc stock saws will pull 13,000rpm in he cut. If he thinks they can then he needs to spend less time being technical and more time being practical... Another interesting question for your Stihl Tech is this:
What causes more damage to a 70cc saws bottom end. Cutting at 9,500rpm with a load, or cutting at 13,000rpm without a load? As mentioned if you can "cut" at 13,000rpm you have no load. I'm pretty sure your Stihl Tech said 13,000rpm for extra dramatic effect in his answer, I highly doubt he believes it.

If 13K rpm is skewing the discussion, let's chalk it up to dramatic effect and just look at WOT revving above the power band due to inadequate load. This would occur with a poorly sharpened & adjusted chain. But it also would occur when limbing small pine and brush at full throttle, which is what I heard one crew doing this summer while they were clearing the power line easement that runs through our property with saws screaming. For me, once wood gets below a certain diameter (12-16" depending on pine, maple, cherry, oak), I can't put enough load on a 440 to keep it in the power band at WOT and end up blipping the throttle. Time for a smaller saw.
The tech said specifically that running at 9500 rpm under load is fine, but running 13000 rpm w/o load is like flooring the accelerator in a car with the transmission in neutral. ... which is exactly how I spun a con rod bearing on a '68 Buick V8 back in the day.
Agree that properly sharpened & adjusted chains make all the difference.

 

[indiansprings]

There is no doubt that a saw's bottom end will last longer at 9,500rpm instead of 13,000rpm. I agree on that.
Now ask local Stihl tech how many 70cc stock saws will pull 13,000rpm in he cut. If he thinks they can then he needs to spend less time being technical and more time being practical - (unless he can somehow fit a 12" micro picco bar to them with skip chain somehow?). That was my point but can understand the original question.
All a gold level Stihl factory certification means is that he is good at fixing saws. Ask him how many 70cc Stihl saw bottom ends he's had to replace from pulling 13,000rpm in the cut. In fact ask him to ask Stihl the same question. Stihl have a good network and generally put things online for dealers if there is a known issue. When he finds the Stihl technote that outlines the 70cc saw pulling 13,000rpm in the cut bottom end problems get him to give you a copy and post it here.
His explanation is like having a question saying "Will my Toyota Prius driveshafts fall out if I pull 400mph?". Yes they probably will, but a Prius can't go that fast.
I know you probably think I'm being an anal smartarse but for crying out loud, think about what he said and then ask yourself what rpm's a 70cc saw pulls in the cut. My ported and pop upped 7900 will max out at about 11,000rpm, even with an 18" bar and factory chain.
Stihl Techs are trained to tune saws with a tach so there is a good chance they don't know what rpm's a saw pulls in the cut. A Gold Tech should however.

Another interesting question for your Stihl Tech is this:

What causes more damage to a 70cc saws bottom end. Cutting at 9,500rpm with a load, or cutting at 13,000rpm without a load? As mentioned if you can "cut" at 13,000rpm you have no load. I'm pretty sure your Stihl Tech said 13,000rpm for extra dramatic effect in his answer, I highly doubt he believes it.

Excellent reply......the masterwrench/gold cert just means he has spent a week in class and are prolly good at the run of the mill repairs,high emphasis on carbs/fuel related issues and engine failure analysis and product liability.
We just don't see issues with the bottom ends, I have seen one main let loose in a year and a half, the only saws we see that have loud main noise is 660's that have four or five years on them in daily logging operations, around here most never see a bar longer than 25". Imho it is much harder on a saw not running it wot in the cut, they are designed to run wot, which in most cases will translate to around 9500 rpm in the cut. I doubt if many on the site will ever run a saw enough to be concerned about the mains. Our 361 has seen at least 750-1000 cords of oak and hickory and I would hate to guess the hours and gallons of fuel run through it. The cylinder/piston looks like new and the bottom end is quite, it's been run on 40:1 and 91oct no ethanol and the air filter is cleaned after everytime it is used. The boys cut/delivered 6 cord today. The last thing I worry about is bottom ends, damage is usually due to dirt/sawdust getting by a clogged filter or poor lubrication not wear and tear.

 

[fishinfiend]

What would be your recommendation for what I would be cutting? It is mainly ash, elm, maple, poplar, and some birch. Also the saw will be used for firewood.

 

[XSKIER]

What would be your recommendation for what I would be cutting? It is mainly ash, elm, maple, poplar, and some birch. Also the saw will be used for firewood.

Ash: .325 .063 RS
Elm: .325 .050 RM
Maple: 3/8 .063 RM
Poplar: 3/8 .050 RS
Birch: 3/8 .063 RS

all on 20" blade or less, for firewood only. For pulp wood use .3/8P .050 PS on a 25" blade.

 

[fishinfiend]

Ash: .325 .063 RS
Elm: .325 .050 RM
Maple: 3/8 .063 RM
Poplar: 3/8 .050 RS
Birch: 3/8 .063 RS

all on 20" blade or less, for firewood only. For pulp wood use .3/8P .050 PS on a 25" blade.

May I ask why chisel for some and semi chisel for others?

 

[XSKIER]

Sure,
wood density, grain pattern, knot frequency, moisture content, abrasives retention in he bark, and personal preference. On a small saw the easiest force multiplier is the absolute best chain for the type of wood you're in.

 

[MCW]

If 13K rpm is skewing the discussion, let's chalk it up to dramatic effect and just look at WOT revving above the power band due to inadequate load. This would occur with a poorly sharpened & adjusted chain. But it also would occur when limbing small pine and brush at full throttle, which is what I heard one crew doing this summer while they were clearing the power line easement that runs through our property with saws screaming. For me, once wood gets below a certain diameter (12-16" depending on pine, maple, cherry, oak), I can't put enough load on a 440 to keep it in the power band at WOT and end up blipping the throttle. Time for a smaller saw.
The tech said specifically that running at 9500 rpm under load is fine, but running 13000 rpm w/o load is like flooring the accelerator in a car with the transmission in neutral. ... which is exactly how I spun a con rod bearing on a '68 Buick V8 back in the day.
Agree that properly sharpened & adjusted chains make all the difference.

Revving the crap out of saws with no load actually makes me cringe If your tech said it like that then he is correct, there is no need to hold a saw WOT. I have heard meathead fruit tree pruners in the past holding 192T's/200T's flat between cuts. You wonder what sort of drugs they were on (actually in all honesty they were as high as kites!). At least I knew why the same contract pruning team went to MS170's a year or so later. The owner was sick of them wrecking $1000 saws from straight gassing them every week.
It reminds me of a video I done a few years ago with a Chinese 038 copy. I wanted to blow it up on camera for a laugh. I posted it on AS. I taped the trigger wide open, leaned it out as far as it would go, no bar and chain, tach was reading 16,000rpm, started the video and sat back waiting for the fireworks. That bloody thing went a whole tank and didn't let go screaming it's tits off. I ended up giving it to a mate with a chainsaw business. He sold it to one of his "professional" firewood cutters for $100 and that darn saw is still running fine about 3 years later with a knuckle dragger owner...

 

[sunfish]

Ash: .325 .063 RS
Elm: .325 .050 RM
Maple: 3/8 .063 RM
Poplar: 3/8 .050 RS
Birch: 3/8 .063 RS

all on 20" blade or less, for firewood only. For pulp wood use .3/8P .050 PS on a 25" blade.

Blade?

I thought you were a little more experienced than that.