Subthread 32:1 vs 50:1 (heat data)

[timberwolf]

I would like to see a conclusive test as well, I may time permitting try to do the test over keeping RPM constant as possible, but that does not say the fuel air mixture will be exact.

Interesting thinking though.

TW

 

[Fish]

I have a Llama sensor in my toolbox. I can rent it out to you
beginners.

 

[timberwolf]

Are you guys really that boared that all you can think to talk about is oil? Put the freekin gas cans down and cut some f-in wood already.

Dont mean to be harsh.

But there are lots of topics in this vast site, ranging from non technical chat to technical trouble shooting (tinkering if you will). If you dont like this thread im sure there is one more suited.

A neat thing about the site is that it allows people of all types and levels of intrests to have there own spot.

Hope you find what your looking for.

Timberwolf

 

[WRW]

FWIW I think this thread is quite interesting. At some point in time a conclusion may be reached. I want to be there for that.
It's late...I'll cut wood tomorrow.

 

[Stumper]

I think that this subject keeps coming up because many of us know intuitively that lubricants and their ratios will make a difference. What we want to discover is WHICH lubricants are best. Why? At what ratio? Keep up the research everyone. I want to KNOW!

 

[TREEGODFATHER]

Originally posted by stinkygrommet
I'm a new member here and I just wanted to say that I think this thread and it's parent have been really beaten to ????. I just did a search for the word oil on this site and I came up with at least 20 threads on the same subject. Are you guys really that boared that all you can think to talk about is oil? Put the freekin gas cans down and cut some f-in wood already.

Let me give (I mean tell) you a piece of advice...

On another forum, I complained once about repeted and beaten to death topics, but if they were not brought up again, there wouldn't be a participation forum, and it would be an archive.

What would be the point in that?

So that leaves it to this, either be nice or don't participate.

 

[Harley]

I don't have an answer as to why the higher oil contents produce higher temps. I suspect that there are many things at work here.

I will point out somethings that I see as "wrongful" assumptions in this thread. I see you guys as thinking of the fuel and oil as being seperate at the moment of combustion. The oil should be well mixed with the gas, and as timberwolf pointed out we have ninety something percent fuel to oil. That means we might have one molecule of oil burned in a droplet of fuel.
Secondly, you assume that the gas, or fuel must be in a gaseous state. In an ideal world that simplifies the "model" so that we can complete complex equations and say that there will be x amount of heat liberated. In the real world it doesn't happen. There will be some fuel that gets vaporized and some fuel that will remain in droplet form.
Someone pointed it out(Crofter?), that the fuel must be treated as a "new" fuel, one that has the combined properties of both the gas and the oil.
I personally feel that the heat tranfer theory has the most merit. You'd have to prove that the flame temp is the same for all mix ratios.

Anyhoo, I'm not trying to bash anyone. Just merely adding my thought on an interesting discussion. Thanks Timberwolf, for taking initiative and showing us your experiments.

 

[rupedoggy]

Mr. Moderator, I am going to jump in here and give two cents worth. If Mr. Grommet wants to show dissatisfaction with a thread, I believe he should be allowed. We are mostly men here and hopefully don't wear our feeling on our sleeve. The man has only posted 6 times and you are on him. I would rather see him write an honest opinion than read that time wasting Llama junk from you know who. You never seem to try to pull in his reins on stupid thread replies-- why? Mike

 

[TREEGODFATHER]

Originally posted by rupedoggy
Mr. Moderator, I am going to jump in here and give two cents worth. If Mr. Grommet wants to show dissatisfaction with a thread, I believe he should be allowed. We are mostly men here and hopefully don't wear our feeling on our sleeve. The man has only posted 6 times and you are on him. I would rather see him write an honest opinion than read that time wasting Llama junk from you know who. You never seem to try to pull in his reins on stupid thread replies-- why? Mike

There where 4 complaints about his post specificly.

I guess not all feel the same way as you do. None where from you know who.

Now that I have read the entire topic, Harley has a pretty good understandle point he brought up.

I will add, what about heat from spark plugs? They do have hotter and colder plug available. These can also help or contribute to the heat generated in an engine.

 

[tundraotto]

agree with rupe 100%, either you guys moderate or you dont. Consistensy seems to be a problem since I have seen 4 of your moderations tonight after 10pm and haven't seen any in many months passed here on the chainsaw forum.

while whateverhisnameissmellslikepoop doesnt agree with this threadhere, I think he can ignore threads that he finds less than worthy for his own persona. At the same time some people need a kick in the side to keep them between the tracks or not at all - whichever it is - need to pick a policy or not police.

and ps. the heat has nothing to do with sparkplugs - the saw was the same except for the oil ratio changes (as posted by timberwolf). The only thing changed in the other test timberwolf performed (discussed at length on a nother thread) was the muffler modifications. Being a common visitor here while keeping up with the Jones' one would already have figured these things out though.

PS. I can only imagine who the 4 were that complained, surely the same ones who got bottled milk as babies.

 

[Dennis]

I am going to throw another 2 cents in...making that about 1.5 cdn....

Everyone has the right to discuss what they wish...and on the other side of the token...sphincterboy, has the right to comment on what he sees or reads...whether we agree with it or not...

If you dont like what he says...put him on ignore..I am sure he will do the same...

We moderators do what we do because we like this site and want to see it progress....instead of complaining...try the ignore feature for things like this....

Myself, as a moderator, recieved 4 emails...regarding whatshisbutt....now I have no problem dealing with issues...but...of these 4 emails...3 of the people...are consistent reporters...(and yes..you know who you are)...

COME ON GUYS!!! We are adult males...(and some females here...I dont see them reporting) Lets act like adults...

I make stupid replies...short ones...so does everyone else here...either we all do...or noone does...Do we want this site to turn into a TSF??

People...we have the best free forum on the net...lets keep it that way!!

--Lets all keep respect in mind.

 

[Lobo]

Their is a minimum and maximum thickness oil film acceptable. Actually the oil protection film is really suppose to be thin (microcospic, measured in MICRONS) especially with todays tighter or closer tolerances. If you do not have enough of an oil film the rings and cylinder walls will create friction which creates heat. However too thick an oil film causes friction as well and also creates additional heat as the film build up between the two fully fills the microns clearances between the two components.

As more oil is being added to the gas the oil film is getting thicker in MICRONS creating a little more friction and therefore generating slightly more heat. This is why timbers readings are higher at 32:1 than 50:1 which is the manufacturers recommended mix. If timberwolf were to go to 24:1 and conduct the same tests his readings would again be higher than at 32:1 :Eye: :Eye:

 

[TREEGODFATHER]

Originally posted by tundraotto
the heat has nothing to do with sparkplugs - the saw was the same except for the oil ratio changes (as posted by timberwolf). The only thing changed in the other test timberwolf performed (discussed at length on a nother thread) was the muffler modifications. Being a common visitor here while keeping up with the Jones' one would already have figured these things out though.

I will refrase it you can help control heat from sprak plugs.

If you want an engine to run cooler you can tweak the jet's and change to a lower spec plug.

Much like getting a car to not ping with cheap gas.

I did see what it was prior, but I was contributing "MY" opinion.

 

[tony marks]

how much to buy it fish . i got to own that thang.. as for my mentioned experiment with 40-1. havnt decided on it yet.
i mean if u cars running smooth , purring like a kitten ,u dont pull over an fix it.

 

[Crofter]

Originally posted by stinkygrommet
Are you guys really that boared that all you can think to talk about is oil? Put the freekin gas cans down and cut some f-in wood already. [/B]

I think that oil is interesting indeed; I know we are 'splitting hairs' here and rather elevating a simple thing like a chainsaw to a virtual art form, but many here are pushing a saws performance to the very edge. Saws are not what they were 20 years ago and neither are SOME oils........ We are collecting and comparing data and experiences and our findings can have an influence on product development. We are the biggest testing ground.( some might say Bunch of guinea pigs). But whatever you find entertaining, go for it. Some people are satisfied to set the alarm clock and go to sleep zzzzzzzzzzz; others lie awake wondering what makes it tick.

 

[Crofter]

Originally posted by TREEGODFATHER
I will refrase it you can help control heat from sprak plugs.

If you want an engine to run cooler you can tweak the jet's and change to a lower spec plug.

Much like getting a car to not ping with cheap gas.

I did see what it was prior, but I was contributing "MY" opinion.

If you are running a plug that is the wrong heat range its tip can be hot enough to ignite the mixture BEFORE the spark occurs (preignition) This usually results in detonation and the result is runaway temperatures and pressures. But as long as the charge is ignited by the engines ignition at the proper time, the plugs heat range has more to do with whether or not it fouls. I understand the Fish knows all kind of interesting things about plugs, but I hate to get him started.

 

[bwalker]

Their is a minimum and maximum thickness oil film acceptable. Actually the oil protection film is really suppose to be thin (microcospic, measured in MICRONS) especially with todays tighter or closer tolerances. If you do not have enough of an oil film the rings and cylinder walls will create friction which creates heat. However too thick an oil film causes friction as well and also creates additional heat as the film build up between the two fully fills the microns clearances between the two components.

Lobo, I think this applys more to a four stroke. If you have ever tore down a two stroke you will notice that the area between the piston and cylinder is filled with oil. I would imagine that piston clearance would have the greatest influance on this. Todays motors are not as tight as you would think. High tech close tolerance motors simply to not excist in this market. Two strokes tend to have higher tolerances than fours stroke anyways due to piston heat issues. The latest thing in shifter cart racing is to run rather lose tolerances and deepscratch cylinder honing to allow more oil in the area I described. Shifter racers also tend to run oil ratios in the 16-20:1 range because they know that more oil contributes to higher compression and longer lasting parts.

BTW I must have must something last night because I havent a clue what you guys are talking aboiut in regards to some errant post.

 

[bwalker]

If you want an engine to run cooler you can tweak the jet's and change to a lower spec plug.

Spark plug heat range reffers to how hot the plug runs not cylinder temp. A "hot" plug will not change the temp of the combustion chamber. The only change will be in the nose of the plug.

 

[dbabcock]

BWalker,
Would you say that a shifter cart engine would be built more like a chainsaw engine because it can be held closer to it's power sweet spot in RPM by virtue of the fact that it has a transmission?

 

[bwalker]

Doug, I do not know what kind of port time numbers that Ken and others put in saw motors, but I would guess that a stock saw and a stock shifter cart motor would have simular port #'s. Saws may actually have more aggressive numbers because there power peaks are a bit higher. Moded shifter carts are a whole differant deal though. A freind of mine builds some of the fastest shifter carts in the country and he configures the port timing to take them to just below the thermal edge. In shifters heat eventually causes the motor to lose power because of charge density issues. Keep in mind that a saw tuned like this would have no low rpm torque and would seize rather quickly as aircooling just woudnt cut it.