synthetic oil

[SIRCHOPALOT]

SIRCHOPALOT, did you notice any longer break in period when breaking in on synthetic. Let's say number of quarts burned before peak power was obtained, or did your tests not get quite that extensive?

Yes my testing was that extensive and probably far beyond. I will get some flak for this, but the peak power is right after assemly. the first run on the dyno is always the highest. The reason a saw gets stronger after a little time is because the crank bearings have to wear in. meaning that the crank is probably not perfecly true from the factory. most will send cranks anywhere up to .002" runout. they say .015" , but from experience I know better. as you run the saw the crank bearings will actually wear in and free up the crank. thus giving more power and more noticably faster acceleration. when I build a crank for a race motor It doesn't leave my shop unless the indicator needle doesn't move. meaning it is either perfect or close enough that I can't measure it. The crank journals are also relieved just a hair to free it up in case these is a small amount of bearing alinment. therefore the crank doesn't have to break in like it does on a saw. so the max power is always right after a new rebuild and actually drops from there.

 

[Lobo]

Yes my testing was that extensive and probably far beyond.

How much longer does it take to break in on synthetic vs dino juice. (average) 2x - 3x- 4x

 

[glens]

don't try to discredit me, I have far too much knowledge on this subject and many hours of track testing , and many many hours of dyno testing. Neither am I a low buget no-name. (in case you were wondering).

Watch it, bud.  Before you accuse me of something you'd better be sure you've got it right.  I didn't say anything to discredit you or even contradict you.  I've got hundreds of thousands of hours English language time under my belt.

Glen

 

[bwalker]

No-oil not making sense: Not on a two-stroke. I recall hearing years ago that for four-stroke (motorcycle road-racing) engines, some builders wiped the cylinder down with acetone prior to assembly for very rapid "break-in", and these were not low-budget no-names with privateer bikes.

A lot of two cycle tuners out them together dry. I have done it both ways with equally good results.
Synthetic oil requiring longer to break in is a old wifes tale and or a ploy used by snake oil saleman to pump up there products. Synthetics are factory fill for many two and four cycle engines these days.
I might also ad the by far Redline is the worst oil I have ever run. Major corrosion issue, fuel compatability issue, attracts water and above average wear. My self and many other in the dirt bike and snowmobile world have ran into these issues.

 

[bwalker]

BTW I have seen a motor I had built being broke in on a dyno and the motor actually gained power after the first few runs. Of course the first run was started with warm water. Alot of times the first run on a dyno makes the best #'s because it is a cold shot. Also keep in mind that kart motors such as kt 100's. cr 80 and 125's tend to be really heat soaked as compared to saws, so the limiting factor for HP production is riding the motor of heat.The dyno really loads the motor down causing heat soak and loss of power. Many times its not who makes the most power at the begining of the race who wins. Its the motor that makes the most sustained power.

 

[SIRCHOPALOT]

sorry- but all my runs have all been at proper temp.I never do a run until the motor has been heat cycled at least twice. my motors are watercooled also. that might make a difference. never had a problem with the redline oil. what in the world are you mixing this with? it is also made to mix and run not mix and set in the garage for a month before you run it. I can control the water temp on my dyno within 1-2degrees and can cool a 180 degree motor to 100 deg in under 10 seconds- so I dont think the heat is the problem. did you have control of the dyno or did someone else? chances are that the operator produced the extra power on the later runs and not the motor. producing consistant runs on a dyno is not as easy as everyone thinks. as far as the redline oil wich one are you useing? there are different types. all I can say is that my customers and myself have used it for about 6-7 years figure at least 20 motors total with many races on them and I have yet to have a lubrication failure yet. btw what was the runout on your cranks that you built? the difference in .001" and perfect is huge in power output and acceleration.

 

[SIRCHOPALOT]

Watch it, bud.  Before you accuse me of something you'd better be sure you've got it right.  I didn't say anything to discredit you or even contradict you.  I've got hundreds of thousands of hours English language time under my belt.

Glen

sorry- guess I took it the wrong way. for some odd reason I must have gotten the wrong idea about you.

 

[spacemule]

most will send cranks anywhere up to .002" runout. they say .015" .

So, you're saying the crank runout you've measured is less than "they" specified? Last time I checked, .002" < .015". Did you make a typo?

 

[SIRCHOPALOT]

So, you're saying the crank runout you've measured is less than "they" specified? Last time I checked, .002" < .015". Did you make a typo?

oops- meant to say.0015.

 

[Blowdown1]

dino for break in (on 4 strokes) comes primarily from rebuilds, not factory. The machining tolerances in factories is better than what most builders are capable of, so the use of a higher friction dino oil was reccommended for break in.

 

[tony marks]

synthetic bar oil is sure expensive to just lube a bar..dino does fine.. as to mix ,i go with synthetic an 40-1 93 octane.. works well for me..

 

[bwalker]

The dont know about he cearances of the engine in question, but the guy who built it was a very skilled and consistant dyno operator. And you are very right when you mentioned the problems with getting repeatability on a dyno. Most dyno results are not worth the paper they are printed on.
As for the fuel we used with Redline. It was just standard pump gas and it wasnt sitting for long. The stuff would turn a new , brass main jet black within a week(which could effect orifice size) and would cause a emulsion to be formed in the float bowl. It also corroded a crank on my snowmobile during the winter when it was being run once a week or more. I know some of the cart guys like it, but I the only use I would have for it would be to keep the dust down on my driveway.
At the time I talked with redlines hed chemist and re recognized that they had a problem, but was powerless to do anything because it would require a total reformulation.

 

[SIRCHOPALOT]

i WOULD SAY YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT MOST DYNO RUNS NOT BEING WORTH THE PAPER THEY ARE PRINTED ON. TOO MANY OPERATORS ARE INTO JUST MAKING NUMBERS AND TOTALLY MISS THE POINT OF THE THING. i WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT THE REDLINE PROBLEM YOU HAD MAY HAVE BEEN FROM THE PUMP GAS YOU WERE MIXING IT WITH, I HAVE ONLY MIXED IT WITH 110 OCTANE RACE GAS AND HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM. THE REASON WE ONLY RUN THE RACE GAS IS BECAUSE WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE GETTING, MOST OF THE TIME I COULD GET AWAY WITH 93 PUMP GAS, BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY PUT SO MANY ADDITIVES IN THAT CRAP THAT YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING. YOU GET SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT IN THE WINTER THAN YOU DO IN THE SUMMER. SO MAYBE THAT IS WHY YOU HAD THE COMPATIBILITY PROBLEM AND I NEVER DID. ESPECIALLY WITH THE SNOWMOBILE IN THE WINTER.

 

[glens]

Do you hit the shift key for each letter?

 

[bwalker]

Undoubtbly you are right in regards to the issue and pump gas. Redlines chemist also offered that up as one theory. I have never had any oil do such things before or since so I avoid Redline like the plague.

 

[bwalker]

BTW I have afeind that worked for on of the big. wisconsin based snowmobile go fast shops. one year they had a motor package that blew everyones out of the water. Come to find out per my buddy what they where doing was runing th pipes till the where cheery red, then switching cooling hook ups to make the motor ultra cool and the pipes hot in order to boost power, althe while running jetting that was good for about a 5 second pull and the timing that would melt in the field in no time. Its after that that I started to listen less and less to companies claiming big #'s on a dyno.

 

[SIRCHOPALOT]

If I had a problem with a certain oil as you say you have, I wouldn't even consider ever using it again either. so I don't blame you for avoiding it. As for the dyno runs, you're right. you can make all kinds of funky numbers on the thing, but some setups would never last on the track. the idea is to produce consistant runs and prove your theories either right or wrong. if you use it correctly it is an irreplacable piece of diagnostic equipment.

 

[SIRCHOPALOT]

Do you hit the shift key for each letter?

No, I OnLy ShIfT WhEn I wAnT tO gO fAsTeR.

 

[DarioMO]

.... i WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT THE REDLINE PROBLEM YOU HAD MAY HAVE BEEN FROM THE PUMP GAS YOU WERE MIXING IT WITH, I HAVE ONLY MIXED IT WITH 110 OCTANE RACE GAS AND HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM. ....

I guess Redline is out for most of us (regular guys) since we don't have access to 110 octane gas.

Dario

 

[SIRCHOPALOT]

sure you do, you can get it at just about any fuel distributor. only thing is it comes in a barrel.