the great oil debate

[Blowdown1]

VT Eng,

you originally said there is a 36% decrease in gas. From your own numbers in your overly convoluted numbers you will see that the decrease in gas is exactly what I said it was ~1%, not 36%. As for the 36%, you are still calculating the % change in the ratio, not the actual volume. Switching from 50:1 to 32:1 results in a 56% increase in the amount of oil by volume.

 

[brent denny]

Bingo!

 

[2Coilinveins]

New poster, New theory

Been lurking for a while. Reading. Searching. Reading some more. Some head-wall banging, and yet more reading. Lots of oil wars. I have a theory I'd like to share.

OVERKILL v. To complete a task with such thoroughness and with such excess that the effort verges upon the ridiculous.

I'm an OVERKILL guy. Yeah, like that, in caps. Always have been, always will be. 1/0 AWG battery cables on my truck when the manufacturer specs 4 AWG. 900 CCA battery when the manufacturer specs 550 CCA. Deep cycle accessory battery in the back that would double as a starting battery in a pinch. 30 foot 2/0 AWG custom built jumper cables instead of the 12 foot 6 AWG cables more commonly used. $6 Purolator Pure One oil filter and Rotella instead of a $2.50 Supertech filter and Supertech oil. Spare tire, air compressor, green Tire Slime, AND a couple cans of Fix-a-Flat. Hi-Lift jack. Hella Euro spec headlights with 55/100 watt bulbs, 10 AWG wires and relays instead of 18 AWG stock wiring and US spec sealed beams. And I run MX2T @ 32:1 in my two stroke equipment.

It boils down to a mindset. I don't find 'adequate' to be acceptable. 'Good enough'...........isn't. 40:1 or 50:1 with OEM oil is adequate. Optimum? No. Best for the equipment? Very doubtful. Maybe us OVERKILLER's suffer from paranoia, and prefer a large cushion. I do. I strive to perform above and beyond 'adequate,' I want my equipment to as well. Those who need OVERKILL explained to them will never understand, those who don't need OVERKILL explained, of course already understand.

Previous to MX2T, I used whatever name brand oil I came across first. Stihl, Husky, Echo, sometimes Castrol. After switching, I've realized several advantages from MX2T. Easier starting, less smoke, smoother running, more power(once tuned for the new mix). The two stroke "funk" that sticks to your clothes and your nose hairs and feels like it coats your throat departed as well. On top of all that, it's cheaper too! Superior product for less $$, how often does that happen?

Let the newbie hazing begin.

 

[Lewis Brander]

Welcome to the site:

Hello 2Collinveins, welcome to the site. Lewis.

 

[DarioMO]

Adequate isn't acceptable to me too...but overkill is just that...overkill.

I do believe in "optimum" not "overkill". There is such thing as law of diminishing return...once optimum is reached the rest is just a waste,

Finding optimum seems to be very elusive though.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[2Coilinveins]

Lewis: Thank you.

Dario: I agree, optimum is elusive. MX2T @ 32:1 is cheaper than Stihl or Husky oil @ 50:1. Better protection for less $$ is hardly a waste.

 

[DarioMO]

Lewis: Thank you.

Dario: I agree, optimum is elusive. MX2T @ 32:1 is cheaper than Stihl or Husky oil @ 50:1. Better protection for less $$ is hardly a waste.

Oh yeah...welcome too

I am not, in any way, questioning MX2T. I actually tried looking for it but cannot find it locally. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough. A fellow AS member actually offered to help me .

The question now is the optimum mix...is it 1:32, 1:40, 1:50, etc.? Hypothetically, IF it is 1:40...then going 1:32 is a waste/overkill...and maybe 1:50 is just adequate.

With all the talents, experience and expertise of the members here...it is possible that it can be pinpointed or atleast the range be narrowed down. Soon I hope .

 

[Lewis Brander]

Other things to consider:

Along with the fuel/oil mix and the air/fuel ratio, another thing to consider in my opinion is the age of the saw your running. I find that with my older saws I tend to run richer fuel/oil mixes. The tolerances of the old saws were somewhat looser and with age wear has to be accounted for. I have saws (50+ years old) that I have ran 32/1 mix in, that sounded somewhat noisy (piston slap, lower end rod bearing noise, what have you). I was running regular pump gas and went to a 93 octane and the same results. I then went to richer fuel/oil mix. Some of my old saws call for 10/1 fuel/oil mix to 20/1 fuel/oil mixes. I now run pretty much 16/1 fuel/oil mixes in them all and they sound much better. I have yet to foul a plug using the 16/1 fule/oil mix. Also the saws seem to like that mix alot better. I don't notice any sign of over heating, the saws seem to run much better (idle and rev up smoother and much quieter), also when cranking them over notice abit more compression and as a result notice better performance. With a newer saw 32/1 to 40/1 fuel/oil mix would be ran if the saw manufacturer called for say 50/1 mixes. I personally wouldn't consider anyting above that for any newer piece of equipment I owned. Again this is what I do with my own equipment and this is my own opinions. Take it for what it's worth and do what you want. Everyone take care. Lewis.

 

[2Coilinveins]

I've got a Mac 795 that seems to like 32:1. Tried 20:1 with the old oils, didn't like choking on the smoke. Wasn't a light plume, which would be just fine, but a big thick cloud. I haven't tried 20:1 with MX2T.....hmmm. Several things could have contributed to the smoke. The biggest wood I had at the time were some two foot oak rounds; I couldn't even properly load the saw down, didn't get it up to full operating temp. Beast of a saw. Don't run it much, and I make sure to eat my Wheaties before I do.

I always run premium gas in all my two stroke equipment.

I guess what I should have said in my first post can be summed up with this: Most likely, there is no optimum, just a blend of compromises equalling the best solution for the conditions at hand. All we can do is use the knowledge at our disposal(whether in our own heads or someone elses, and shared through mediums such as this forum) to do the best we can, and find our own optimum.

Thanks all for going easy on the newbie, sorry if I came on too strong.

 

[jimbo1490]

I've observed with many two-stroke bikes over the years that the smaller displacement engines are easier to sieze/score than the larger ones. This is partially due to the fact (with bikes, anyway) that the smaller engines are tuned for maximum peak power and generally do have a higher specific output. But I think there is more to it than just that. The bearings, and piston/cylinder do not have twice the 'wetted' area in a larger engine than in a smaller one. The wetted area of the cylinder varies directly with the diameter and length of the cylinder, not its cross-section. Remember that circumfrence grows in a linear way, while area grows exponentially. So a larger engine can easily have twice or even more than twice the displacement and twice the fuel consumption, yet there is something less than twice the surface area to wet out with the oil. So more oil is available for lubrication per unit area in a larger dispalcement engine, other things (like bore/stroke ratio) being equal. I always ran my big bore bikes at 50-64:1. I had tried that with smaller bikes but burned up several jugs before settling for 32-40:1. I never did seize up any of the bigger bikes.

Jimbo

 

[klickitatsacket]

I do not like adequate, nor do I like overkill. I believe the word optimum was used and that is the word we should all focus on. Remember overkill still kills or at the very least waists. I have read everything I could on here about the oil and chased down every link that was presented in arguments. I went to all the racing bike forums I could find....... I admit I switched to 40:1 . With that said however I do believe you have to be careful with overKILL. I have tore down too many saws that were killed from carbon deposits falling back into the cylinder from the exhaust port. I am not saying that it is all from heavy mixes; in fact most of the time it is from clogged air filters and dull chains but non the less I have seen many a saw that was fouled from too heavy a mix. Optimum for your saw though may not be optimum for others. Weather, altitude, cutting conditions, manufacturer, modifications, air filter style, age of the equipment or even the air temperature in which the saw runs can change your requirements. Proper and regular maintenance will go a lot further than the slight amount of variation of mix. If however you are at the point of being a skilled operator and you take pride in getting the optimum results then by all means find it. I will guarantee though there are countless variations in the equation.

 

[Lobo]

ESSO in Canada which is Exxon/Mobil in the states are promoting their line of Easymix 2 cycle oil which can also be used at up to 100:1.

I have attached their product sheet.

 

[bwalker]

Lobo, I live in Canada during the summers while runing a fishing lodge. In the last few years I have used easy mix quit a bit at 32:1 and it works great. I have also went through several 55 gallon barrels of esso outboard. Both products are very high quality with escellant prices.
BTW Easy mix does say it can be run at 100:1, but only if the OEM reccomends that ratio. Some of the Yamaha outboards we run spec a 100:1 ratio and we use the esso outboard in them at 50:1 with excellant results.
FWIW heavy carbon deposits are caused by the wrong type of oil, rich jetting, plugged filters(causing rich jetting), etc and are not caused by the mix ratio. My snowmobile has a injection sytem that runs at 20:1. I have been running citgo sea and snow in it and havent fouled a plug in the several thousand miles since I bought it. The exhaust valves and plug are both very clean despite using so much oil.

 

[bwalker]

BTW I will take overkill, IE insurance. OIl is very cheap int he scheme of things.

 

[Lobo]

Hi ben,
Do not want to put you on the spot, are you down in N-B or N-S in the spring and summer enjoying Atlantic Salmon fishing !

Up until recently I had never paid much attention to Esso oils, happened to stumble upon it a couple of weeks back. Would by far prefer Esso sell Mobil MX2T up here however.

 

[bwalker]

You can get Mobil MX@T from any Esso jobber. And no, I am not out east rather I am located in NW Ontario. www.hawk-lake.com

 

[bwalker]

BTW I dont know why the idea always poops up that mor oil in the mix equals less fuel in the combustion chamber. Regardless of the ratio your carb must be tuned daily to run at peak levels.

 

[bwalker]

BTW I dont know why the idea always pops up that more oil in the mix equals less fuel in the combustion chamber. Regardless of the ratio your carb must be tuned daily to run at peak levels.

 

[Al Smith]

Very nice looking lodge,Ben.I remember as a young fellow,fishing for northerns,with my dad,great sport.Ah yes,the oil issue.In my opinion,40 to 1 is probably acceptable,but being an old die hard,I still run 32 to 1.I've never seized a saw,nor do I have problems with plugging the mufflers [ they are all mostly gutted any way ] I think it just becomes a matter of personal preferences,nothing has ever been resolved on these "oil debates"

 

[Lobo]

Hi Ben,

Beautiful lodge and area its easy to understand someone looking forward to going up there for the summer.

Thanks for the info on the Esso Easymix, just happened to catch a glimpse of it at the station a few weeks back, up until then I did not know of its exhistence. I called the Mobil distributor in Montreal I guess they serve part of eastern Canada they only sell MX2T by cases and larger quantities. This distributor seems more involved in industrial business than anything else. Went as far up as Esso head office in Toronto they could not help me. I will pick some up in Plattsburg or Burlington next time in.
Curiously you can get Mobil 1 Super Syn at Wal-mart and Canadian Tire but no MX2, kind of strange isn't it.