The "Not So Pro" discussion thread...of course Pros are welcome!

[edwardo]

Why? You no wan't health insurance, paid time off, a retirement plan, L+I insurance and a fair wage?

Or would you rather work under the table for a few dollars over minimum wage, cause that's what a "man" does?

last time I was under the table was when I was a teen. Why can't I have those things under a conservative boss?
I was just thinking more in terms of individual disposition, though. You know, those folks who are always right. One morning I saw greed strong enough that safety was supplanted. In contrast I had been told all of these don't dos that would make you roll your eyes.
so, you leave a man's ax at the crummy, that you took responsibility for storing. & then refuse to go get it while also demanding production NOW. AND you're starting the axless man in a corner on a steep ridge? That chit kind of just blew me away. 10 minutes later & I'm responding to a hangup. went down, tapped a wedge, dodged a little bitch of a widowmaker (I took my buddy with me down the hill), then the radio shouts the question why there are no saws running. That was it. I told him I'd be right over to answer the question in person, hot enough to fu5k & ready to get my ass kicked.. I asked him what the in the fu5k did he think was going to happen sending a man who was still learning a lot into a corner with no ax & were in the fu7k did he get the idea that yelling at us was okay. Told him that this would be the first & last time that he was going to spout the fu7k off to me when his fuc&up caused everything. He seemed to have a change of feeling because he didn't say much. After that, I knew that all the hype I'd been hearing of & waiting for was just BS. My buddy who was still a little bit green busted 3 saws in way less than a year hell the boss did 2 saws. the loggers kept saying weird stuff, like they were hinting of who should be in charge of who...... It just got shittier & shittier. I finally bailed when he told me that If I was going to see my 84 year old grandmother for Thanksgiving, that I should just go ahead & stay there. not long after that my buddy got killed. He was ready to go back to Halliburton. I feel like I could have prevented that from happening, because I saw it coming.

 

[rwoods]

NM, I remember this from before. edwardo believes the employer put his former co-worker in over his head and he was killed as a result. Probably should just leave it at that. These situations will shake a man to his core - whether a co-worker or an employer. I feel for both of them.

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

last time I was under the table was when I was a teen. Why can't I have those things under a conservative boss?
I was just thinking more in terms of individual disposition, though. You know, those folks who are always right. One morning I saw greed strong enough that safety was supplanted. In contrast I had been told all of these don't dos that would make you roll your eyes.
so, you leave a man's ax at the crummy, that you took responsibility for storing. & then refuse to go get it while also demanding production NOW. AND you're starting the axless man in a corner on a steep ridge? That chit kind of just blew me away. 10 minutes later & I'm responding to a hangup. went down, tapped a wedge, dodged a little ***** of a widowmaker (I took my buddy with me down the hill), then the radio shouts the question why there are no saws running. That was it. I told him I'd be right over to answer the question in person, hot enough to fu5k & ready to get my ass kicked.. I asked him what the in the fu5k did he think was going to happen sending a man who was still learning a lot into a corner with no ax & were in the fu7k did he get the idea that yelling at us was okay. Told him that this would be the first & last time that he was going to spout the fu7k off to me when his fuc&up caused everything. He seemed to have a change of feeling because he didn't say much. After that, I knew that all the hype I'd been hearing of & waiting for was just BS. My buddy who was still a little bit green busted 3 saws in way less than a year hell the boss did 2 saws. the loggers kept saying weird stuff, like they were hinting of who should be in charge of who...... It just got shittier & shittier. I finally bailed when he told me that If I was going to see my 84 year old grandmother for Thanksgiving, that I should just go ahead & stay there. not long after that my buddy got killed. He was ready to go back to Halliburton. I feel like I could have prevented that from happening, because I saw it coming.

for whatever reasons, ones political stance does not necessarily make them a good or bad boss, sounds like yer former boss was just an *******, they come in all strips.

NM, I remember this from before. edwardo believes the employer put his former co-worker in over his head and he was killed as a result. Probably should just leave it at that. These situations will shake a man to his core - whether a co-worker or an employer. I feel for both of them.

Ron

Ya but when have I been know to keep quiet?

As for making employers pay these things, who really believes that.
A: any of em would pay you enough to cover that stuff on your own
B: that any but a minority that did get paid enough, would actually put it away
C: uncle sam would just filch it from us anyway.

Now most of them things 401k, vacation time, etc are not required, the employer knows that if competitive benefits are not offered, they won't find good people to fill the jobs needed.

Requiring health insurance to be covered, is wrong on many levels, and I don't agree with the ACA, but many folks wouldn't have health insurance without it, doesn't make it better... cause those employers that did cover health care before ACA where pretty good to work for anyway, them that didn't where not so good as a whole.

As for being competitive in this current job market... you bet yer ass you have to be, folks that say they can't find a job are not looking, or are unemployable (read worthless, or incompetent, or scum bag).

First time in my memory since the 90's folks are hiring loggers out here, and having trouble finding them.

Equipment operators, welders, CDL drivers, general laborers are all in high demand, and making good money at jobs with good benefits.

But you have to show up, pass a UI (without studying) and show some competence, which frankly is missing in most candidates lately, no one knows how to swing a hammer any more, let alone the proper end of shovel to hold.

 

[Beetlejuice]

Not that it shows, but I do agree with everything you said.. I said 25-30 years ago that we weren't bringing youngens up through the ranks. In this economy I wish I was 25-3 yrs younger so I could cash in on some of this.. At 63 I'm still getting my 10-12 hrs a day in.. So, I'll stop the bitch'en..it will be people like us that can and WILL swing that hammer that will save the computer generation..

 

[rwoods]

... . not long after that my buddy got killed. He was ready to go back to Halliburton. I feel like I could have prevented that from happening, because I saw it coming.

Easy for me to say sitting here waiting for the snow, but man, don't take on that responsibility and resulting guilt. Maybe you could and maybe you couldn't - life is too short, and at times too hard, to hang on to what might should or could have been if you had done this or that. Remember him for who he was, warn yahoos like me, and carry on.

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

The real question is does anyone want to save them?

their bed they can lie in it.

 

[rwoods]

NM, I have three daughters and three granddaughters. Those lying in their beds affects them more than us. Most of the two immediate generations before me seemed to have made great sacrifices for mine. Don't know about their predecessors, but likely they did as well. I'm no kin to Mother Theresa or Andrew Carnegie but I would like to leave this world in a little better shape than I found it. I believe you do to. I hope my kids do as well. If it takes extra effort to help these generations then it is good that folks like Beetlejuice are willing to roll up their sleeves and go to work. Ron

 

[hseII]

Oh no...

Well, my only suggestion, if you plan on continuing these escapades.

Get your self a Big Shot, some throw line and a couple throw bags. Makes it effortless to put a line 90' up a tree.

Follow that with some good arborist rigging line, (I like the 9/16 samson stable braid) add at least one snatch block for redirection and you can move the world.

Worst case scenerio it will keep the trees out of any high value targets.

As for locust, the only one I was ever involved in, I managed to talk our way out of doing, as it had all sorts of height and bad lean, with no where to go. At the time we neither one of us had insurance or anything.

Exactly.

Didn’t have time for pictures with only two of us to clean up the mess. Conventional face with a high back cut - thought it would vertically split and leave a flexible hinge. Nope, barely any flex, in fact none visible until I gutted it.

Unfamiliarity with the wood (lot harder and stiffer than I expected), too much weight, too low rope (probably 16’ due to vines), wrapping the rope from the road side instead of the open side and a rolling tug is my diagnosis of the failure. I could have stayed at the tree and stacked wedges but the hinge had gotten too thin for my liking - I thinned it several times after the wedges started pinging instead of moving. After each thinning I could drive them a little more. When the tree spun it put the pole in reach of the wide crown. Just slapped it lightly but unknown to us it was rotten at the base and ready to fall. Fortunately it was a short drop pole without a current connection.

The rest of the trees have no targets but I like things to fall at least close to where I intended. I don’t like surprises that a little knowledge can avoid.

Ron

Please Go Buy each, & become familiar with them:
1. The Tree Climber’s Companion- Jeff Jepson- for the Knot Tying section alone.
2. Professional Timber Falling, A Procedural Approach- D. Douglas Dent
3. To Fell A Tree- Jeff Jepson

4. a. A Big Shot
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=455
Buy the kit along with a Hard Plastic, Rifle Length Gun case to store it in.
4. b. An ATPA
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=11138

5. 5/8” Stable Braid- minimum, I would recommend 1- 200’ section & 1- 250’ section. Probably 1- 5/8” section, & 1- 3/4” or 7/8” section.

6. 4:1 or 5:1 MA
I have this one & I really like it.
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=16398

This set up, with a few redirect pulleys, a few attachment slings/sections of rope, etc., & a basic understanding of knot tying would help your situation.

If I'm unfamiliar with the wood I'll normally shy from something like that unless I have to, equipment to pull the tree in that direction. If I had to do that with a cat (I know some will same a skidder will work) to put winch tension on the tree before cutting.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Exactly

 

[northmanlogging]

NM, I have three daughters and three granddaughters. Those lying in their beds affects them more than us. Most of the two immediate generations before me seemed to have made great sacrifices for mine. Don't know about their predecessors, but likely they did as well. I'm no kin to Mother Theresa or Andrew Carnegie but I would like to leave this world in a little better shape than I found it. I believe you do to. I hope my kids do as well. If it takes extra effort to help these generations then it is good that folks like Beetlejuice are willing to roll up their sleeves and go to work. Ron

My ma would take in strays all the time, try and give em a fighting chance, most where just mooches and thieves. Stay with us 3-6 months, then rob the change jar, and what ever smokes where around and vacate without so much as a how do.

Some turned out ok.

So I'm not apposed to giving a hand up, but folks had better be reaching first. I've worked with a number of 20 somethings that had a fighting chance and where taking it for everything they could, and it makes me a little happier to know they are out there.

But then I've ran into others that are 25, no job, never had a job, no car, no license, lives with mom in a crappy apartment, plays video games all day, wants money...

But can't be bothered to sweat for it, and bitch all day about the blisters on their pretty little hands. Then leave at noon, and never bother to collect the money they didn't earn.

 

[Beetlejuice]

My ma would take in strays all the time, try and give em a fighting chance, most where just mooches and thieves. Stay with us 3-6 months, then rob the change jar, and what ever smokes where around and vacate without so much as a how do.

Some turned out ok.

So I'm not apposed to giving a hand up, but folks had better be reaching first. I've worked with a number of 20 somethings that had a fighting chance and where taking it for everything they could, and it makes me a little happier to know they are out there.

But then I've ran into others that are 25, no job, never had a job, no car, no license, lives with mom in a crappy apartment, plays video games all day, wants money...

But can't be bothered to sweat for it, and ***** all day about the blisters on their pretty little hands. Then leave at noon, and never bother to collect the money they didn't earn.

Just a quick chime in.. My folks were both elementary school teachers, and I think (know), that's where I get my philosophy.. Dad taught at the same school for 30 yrs and lived in the district also, so most of the volunteer work was for or through the school, and was well known throughout the neighborhood.. His favorite saying, (at least to me), was "don't try to change the world, just the little bit you live in, and always for the better".. Has served me well over the years as we live in one of the poorer neighborhoods, but everyone in this little section of the world knows that if I can help, I will try.. And I've found the flip/flip works also.. Sometimes I need a hand . mostly lifting rounds. Anyway, there ya have it, the world according to beetlejuice

 

[northmanlogging]

Well as some old cowboy used to say, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make em drink"

I offer help all the time, but it comes with the price of needing to do your part.

I'm not into hand outs and free anything, you wan't something you have to at the very least try. Point I'm making is these kids aren't even trying.

 

[Beetlejuice]

Well as some old cowboy used to say, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make em drink"

I offer help all the time, but it comes with the price of needing to do your part.

I'm not into hand outs and free anything, you wan't something you have to at the very least try. Point I'm making is these kids aren't even trying.

I have a quicky then must run.. I helped one of the Neighbors boys a couple years ago.. I say boy, but at 37 at the time was no boy. In and out of trouble forever, but I saw so much of me in him it was uncanny. He wanted to ride motorcycles, as I use to, and the only one I would part with was an old shovel. Up and running in couple weeks, and he has bloomed. Took a 180 degree turn and a joy to be around, works full time, a citizen again.. Not all situations turn out like this, but it does keep me going

 

[rwoods]

NM,

I believe we think more alike than our few words here can express. Takes more wisdom than I have to always know when to intervene and when to let the natural consequences reign.

Now about them walnuts and sycamores, I am going to let them fall where they want to fall. Been on the fence for years about further investment in ropes, pulleys and such. Present assessment is I need something to get my throw rope further up in the tree. Three of us taking turns took longer to get the rope in the tree the short distance we did than it took to cut it - aging arms and shoulders compounded in my case with no innate ability.

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

NM,

I believe we think more alike than our few words here can express. Takes more wisdom than I have to always know when to intervene and when to let the natural consequences reign.

Now about them walnuts and sycamores, I am going to let them fall where they want to fall. Been on the fence for years about further investment in ropes, pulleys and such. Present assessment is I need something to get my throw rope further up in the tree. Three of us taking turns took longer to get the rope in the tree the short distance we did than it took to cut it - aging arms and shoulders compounded in my case with no innate ability.

Ron

Everyone gets the same chance with me. Up to them after that.

Look into a big shot and throw line, cpule hundred and it only take minutes to chuck a line way up der

 

[Beetlejuice]

This is what works for me.. A year ago my wife bought me a winch, 3500 lb. from harbour freight..built the carriage to hold it to the front frame.. Real easy on s-10's.. Just take the hooks out and slide the other in and bolt it. Has a plug-in control with enough cord to go into the cab. AND, don't tell everyone but most of the time I go a wood'en by myself. Not smart, but I never made that claim.. 50' lead on the winch, and I carry about an extra 100' in just cable, with different chokes and the like. It's kinda eye opening the first couple times, but gets easier every time.. Il always real careful to pick and choose trees.. I have visions of having the truck snatched right out front underneath me.. Hasn't happened yet.. Won't, I don't think, if I keep my head..after all, an S-10 just doesn't weigh that much. Like going to a gun fight with a squirt pistol. Anyway.. That's how I survive.. Cheers. K

 

[northmanlogging]

If you plan on using light trucks, i.e. pick up trucks of all sizes.

Be sure to go through a block to redirect and get the pull low.

Going straight up the tree from something as light as a PU, if and when the tree want's to go back wards, it lifts the weight off the tires, reducing traction, farther it drifts less traction you get.

So even if ye ole S10 doesn't go airborn it can surely slip and slide and cause just as much harm.

Redirecting to keep the line low, at least the truck won't take off and has a better chance of finding purchase. it will also allow the tension on the winch to come from a static point, rather then swinging and putting all sorts of strange stresses on a weak little frame, also static positions are predictable positions.

I try and do this with the skidder even, cause I've had them move the machine before, and that is a bad day if not dealt with in a hurry.

 

[hseII]

If you plan on using light trucks, i.e. pick up trucks of all sizes.

Be sure to go through a block to redirect and get the pull low.

Going straight up the tree from something as light as a PU, if and when the tree want's to go back wards, it lifts the weight off the tires, reducing traction, farther it drifts less traction you get.

So even if ye ole S10 doesn't go airborn it can surely slip and slide and cause just as much harm.

Redirecting to keep the line low, at least the truck won't take off and has a better chance of finding purchase. it will also allow the tension on the winch to come from a static point, rather then swinging and putting all sorts of strange stresses on a weak little frame, also static positions are predictable positions.

I try and do this with the skidder even, cause I've had them move the machine before, and that is a bad day if not dealt with in a hurry.

Agreed.

 

[Skeans]

This should be interesting since they already have logmax as well.
https://www.komatsuforest.us/Media/Newsroom/Komatsu-to-acquire-Quadco-and-Southstar-operations

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Beetlejuice]

If you plan on using light trucks, i.e. pick up trucks of all sizes.

Be sure to go through a block to redirect and get the pull low.

Going straight up the tree from something as light as a PU, if and when the tree want's to go back wards, it lifts the weight off the tires, reducing traction, farther it drifts less traction you get.

So even if ye ole S10 doesn't go airborn it can surely slip and slide and cause just as much harm.

Redirecting to keep the line low, at least the truck won't take off and has a better chance of finding purchase. it will also allow the tension on the winch to come from a static point, rather then swinging and putting all sorts of strange stresses on a weak little frame, also static positions are predictable positions.

I try and do this with the skidder even, cause I've had them move the machine before, and that is a bad day if not dealt with in a hurry.

All, great advice.. You're right about the bad day.. Haven't had one yet,,,,,,but yet being the operative word... Thanks for the input. Im'a thinking common sense will, and has been my friend.. But, I really look forward to the headrush that comes with disaster.. Cheers, K

 

[rwoods]

No ropes or wedge pounding today. Cut 7 or 8 standing dead red oaks in a logged out patch. No going against the lean on these - just picked the safest place to cut on the back side given the overhead hazard then let the lean help me put it there. Only one fell a few degrees off. One 40" plus at the cut, one 18" and the rest about an 1" to 4" longer than my 25" bar.

Nothing exciting about my cutting for you guys but I took some pictures of the logger's stumps since I have never seen stumps like them - maybe bitzer or some other more east hardwood cutter has seen this type of cut. When I saw the first stump I thought it was a mistake but then I saw they were all done the same way. Looks to be a conventional face with the top cut bypassing the lower level cut. I saw at least one that looked to be a back bore with a trigger. Ron