ri chevy
ArboristSite Guru
It has to do with the additive package in the oil. Marine use is very different from land use.
The official CT Autumn GTG (07 November 2015)
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malk315
Running Saws for Therapy
I am a bit of a nut when it comes to chain sharpening. I use the Husky roller guide and vise that holds the chain solid off bar for precision and two depth gauge tools. Drf255 noticed the aggressive rakers on my 372 it is setup to eat pine but will bite harder in oak.
Dans first cuts in the log were after the 262 had made several others and the end of that wood was really hard. The Stihl had it beat by a second or so would have liked to see another pass further into the log and a new edge on the chain.
Seeing mustang mikes square ground setups and hearing about the technique / cutting some cookies was a treat for me. All done by hand is impressive. I've tried grinders and just keep going back to my files, guides, and vise. Maybe I'll take the square ground plunge sometime.
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The assumption is that an air cooled engine runs hotter then a water cooled one,so the oil is "engineered different". Personal experience tells me that is smoke and mirrors by the manufacturers.
RR
I was going to say the same thing, but with a different conclusion. Marine engines are water cooled and run cooler than air cooled, especially air cooled that is not moving through the air (like a motorcycle). The oils are intended to work in different temperature ranges. That does not mean Marine Oil will not protect a chainsaw engine, but it is not the optimal oil for that purpose.
Most of my saws are ported, and I sometimes use them hard. I try to choose the best stuff to protect them and give them long life. For example, I run 93 octane instead of regular because the Stihl manual says high test fuel will allow your saw to run cooler, and heat is the enemy of longevity in a saw.
That does not mean that a lot of people don't run 89 octane w/o any problems, but it is not going into my saws.
Most of my saws are ported, and I sometimes use them hard. I try to choose the best stuff to protect them and give them long life. For example, I run 93 octane instead of regular because the Stihl manual says high test fuel will allow your saw to run cooler, and heat is the enemy of longevity in a saw.
That does not mean that a lot of people don't run 89 octane w/o any problems, but it is not going into my saws.
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
Exactly.......and thanks for seeing it that way. I build working saws......never racing saws. So in all honesty, I could care less if one saw is a tick faster in timed cuts.
Who here has ever found a tree in the woods with a stopwatch on it?
If it's still wet it's not burning completely or tuned too rich. 800 needs a load to burn completely.
drf255
BAD CAD
Couldn't agree more.
You can certainly sharpen a chain Eric. I had to pull back on your 272 so the dawgs wouldn't bury themselves. Very impressive saw and chain.
To me, a saw has to be enjoyable to use. I want it to sound wicked, be able to cut at a good speed, have excellent throttle response, and not be too easy to big down with some reasonable bar pressure.Exactly.......and thanks for seeing it that way. I build working saws......never racing saws. So in all honesty, I could care less if one saw is a tick faster in timed cuts.
Who here has ever found a tree in the woods with a stopwatch on it?
My Masreminded 066 and my home built 036 are the only two saws I own that do that. Not sure what gives that response exactly. I guess it's a saw that's just dying for more fuel and air. They "SNORT" when you pull the trigger.
Rather have that than a race saw with a narrow powerband that is 1 second faster at WOT.
Derf
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm pretty sure that most people are capable of porting a saw to be better than stock. I think some people get caught up with "the best" because they have to choose their builder, and they are throwing significant money down. You did alright Matt: close to professional results for a fraction of the cost.
And also, I think chain makes a big difference, and without the same setup on both saws it's very hard to judge. Even between two equally sharp chains, how much the rakers are filed down really can affect the feel that the chain is biting. If the saw has the power, having more aggressive rakers will result in a faster cut. Between yours and Eric's I felt Eric's cut faster, but I didn't feel that yours was lacking power.
Sharpen a chain, set up a camera, take a test cut or three, then file down your rakers some and take another test cut. Compare your times. I bet your saw has the power to pull the chain.
Also- I changed an air fitting on my impact yesterday and saved the useless adapter thinking of you[emoji2]. Post a picture of that timing wheel setup, if you get a chance so I can duplicate it.
And also, I think chain makes a big difference, and without the same setup on both saws it's very hard to judge. Even between two equally sharp chains, how much the rakers are filed down really can affect the feel that the chain is biting. If the saw has the power, having more aggressive rakers will result in a faster cut. Between yours and Eric's I felt Eric's cut faster, but I didn't feel that yours was lacking power.
Sharpen a chain, set up a camera, take a test cut or three, then file down your rakers some and take another test cut. Compare your times. I bet your saw has the power to pull the chain.
Also- I changed an air fitting on my impact yesterday and saved the useless adapter thinking of you[emoji2]. Post a picture of that timing wheel setup, if you get a chance so I can duplicate it.
Thanks for the thoughts and comments ... I should do a saw up with more common materials...and post the results. ie, can porting be done with no Bridgeport, no lathe, no fancy equipment other than some sandpaper and a dremel. maybe a build like that would be quite relevant.
The chain I was running on my 262xp was a nearly fresh loop of lgx. very few cuts on it. I hadn't touched it myself. Maybe touching it would have helped
Keep in mind to, Randy's saw was turning 14k, mine was tuned at 13k and we had a hard time getting it higher than that. Overall, Randy's saw gets the nod, no question in my mind. I'm just happy that I got remotely close
The next thing for me to do is send my 350 down to Brad and see if it compares against his 346's...
I'll post pics of the wheel if I get the chance, I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but my way works for me.
The chain I was running on my 262xp was a nearly fresh loop of lgx. very few cuts on it. I hadn't touched it myself. Maybe touching it would have helped
Keep in mind to, Randy's saw was turning 14k, mine was tuned at 13k and we had a hard time getting it higher than that. Overall, Randy's saw gets the nod, no question in my mind. I'm just happy that I got remotely close The next thing for me to do is send my 350 down to Brad and see if it compares against his 346's...
I'll post pics of the wheel if I get the chance, I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but my way works for me.
Al, I'm surprised you left you 044 off that list, felt strong to me.
I do a crude timing advance on some of my saws, mostly based on Randy's build thread for the 461 and my own calculations & crude judgement, but it works. I'll add my calculations later, have to walk the dogs now (between raindrops).
I do a crude timing advance on some of my saws, mostly based on Randy's build thread for the 461 and my own calculations & crude judgement, but it works. I'll add my calculations later, have to walk the dogs now (between raindrops).
Hey, I have never done any "porting', looking forward to the advice from you guys on what can be done w/o all the fancy equipment.
Derf
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks for the thoughts and comments ... I should do a saw up with more common materials...and post the results. ie, can porting be done with no Bridgeport, no lathe, no fancy equipment other than some sandpaper and a dremel. maybe a build like that would be quite relevant.
The chain I was running on my 262xp was a nearly fresh loop of lgx. very few cuts on it. I hadn't touched it myself. Maybe touching it would have helped
The next thing for me to do is send my 350 down to Brad and see if it compares against his 346's...
I'll post pics of the wheel if I get the chance, I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but my way works for me.
Yup, I was just talking with Al the other day- I said I was pretty sure that "porting" saws started by the loggers/operators, who had only basic tools : hammer, file, drill, sand paper... If you look at TreeMonkey's (a well-respected builder) build threads he uses a wooden mandrel on a drill chuck to cut the squish band, he cleans up the chatter marks with sand paper. DozerDan ports transfer tunnels with an old dentist drill that runs cables along the flex arm to the grinder.
Going up to a dremel or foredom was probably only for guys that did it regularly, and a mill/lathe was only for people who had a machinist friend or planned to make porting saws into a profession, which is probably only possible because of the Internet creating such a sensation and reputation for builders.
Luckily aluminum is pretty soft, and people are pretty resourceful. There are many ways to skin the cat, some are just faster than others. Increasing compression is an old trick to get more power out of an engine. Playing with the timing of the ports is largely feeling around in the dark- you get better as you do more saws. Which is why the porting guys who do lots of saws get to tweak their recipe a little each time to see what works better. And if they have two or three of the same on their bench at a time they can do side-by-side comparisons. We're basically all paying to be test cases for them while they are learning what works best. I'm betting if you compared all of Randy's 262 port jobs you'd see some variance too.
Really looking forward to the information from you guys as I have never done any porting work, so let me share a little on what I do with timing advance, which I think is often the next step after muff mods and better air filtration.
First, some raw basics. The flywheel spins counter clockwise, and timing advance is usually attained by advancing the flywheel in that direction (as opposed to moving the coil). On the older Stihl saws with removable keys, that means removing material from the right side of the key (the portion above the crank) and turning the flyweel counter clockwise firmly against the right side of the key. For the 362 (and many Huskys I understand) with keys built into the flywheel, you must remove material from the left side of the built in key.
Randy has an excellent build thread on the 461 with pics (so I wont try to duplicate), and advice from Randy and Al are generally in the range of 20-25/1000 off the key, which is usually about right for my saws. I have also often seen the recommendation of approximately 1/3 of the key, which may or may not be good depending on the saw.
Well, my background is in accounting, so I like to crunch #s, so let me explain what I do to ensure I'm in the ballpark (and mind you my adjustments are crude estimates, not exact amounts, but I try to calculate an accurate goal as a starting point).
I'll go through my calculations for 2 saws; the 362 and 044. Basically, I measure the diameter of the flywheel, then calculate the circumference (Diameter X pie [3.1416]), then divide by 360 to know the distance for each degree, then multiply by 5, then 6 to get an idea of how much advance is needed to increase timing advance by 5 or 6 degrees. I don't know if that is the optimum amount, it just seemed like reasonable amounts in my judgement.
Here are my calculations:
Saw Diam Circ 1 degree 5 degrees 6 degrees
362 4" 12.5664" .034907" .174535" .20944"
044 4.375" 13.7445" .038179" .190896" .229075"
(4 3/8)
Now here is the real judgement part, I take a straight edge and put it across the flywheel aligned with the right of the keyway cutout on the older Still saws, and put a black mark on the edge of the flywheel. Then I measure 200/1000 (a little less than 1/4") to the left and put another mark. I then align the straight edge with the mark on the left, and the center of the hole, and judge approximately how much of the key must be cut. I have the calipers opened to 20/1000 near by to help me with this judgement. I find the 20-25/1000 is about right for my saws.
The key on the 044 was approximately 80/1000 (It varied from .78-.84), so I reduced the top of it to 60/1000 thick.
The key on the 362 was 140/1000. Taking 1/3 off of that would have been far too much. I took 20/1000 off the left side with a triangle file. Not ideal, or as precise as cutting a removable key, but it worked. I would caution about advancing M-Tronic saws too much, as it can play havoc with the M-Troinics. In fact, even with this mild timing advance, my saw acted funky for about a week until it digested the changes. (Note: I just put the key, or flywheel in the vice and file by hand as accurately as I can, measuring frequently).
I'd like to know what others do, and to learn more about porting, or any suggestions that would improve upon what I do. Hope this is a little helpful.
First, some raw basics. The flywheel spins counter clockwise, and timing advance is usually attained by advancing the flywheel in that direction (as opposed to moving the coil). On the older Stihl saws with removable keys, that means removing material from the right side of the key (the portion above the crank) and turning the flyweel counter clockwise firmly against the right side of the key. For the 362 (and many Huskys I understand) with keys built into the flywheel, you must remove material from the left side of the built in key.
Randy has an excellent build thread on the 461 with pics (so I wont try to duplicate), and advice from Randy and Al are generally in the range of 20-25/1000 off the key, which is usually about right for my saws. I have also often seen the recommendation of approximately 1/3 of the key, which may or may not be good depending on the saw.
Well, my background is in accounting, so I like to crunch #s, so let me explain what I do to ensure I'm in the ballpark (and mind you my adjustments are crude estimates, not exact amounts, but I try to calculate an accurate goal as a starting point).
I'll go through my calculations for 2 saws; the 362 and 044. Basically, I measure the diameter of the flywheel, then calculate the circumference (Diameter X pie [3.1416]), then divide by 360 to know the distance for each degree, then multiply by 5, then 6 to get an idea of how much advance is needed to increase timing advance by 5 or 6 degrees. I don't know if that is the optimum amount, it just seemed like reasonable amounts in my judgement.
Here are my calculations:
Saw Diam Circ 1 degree 5 degrees 6 degrees
362 4" 12.5664" .034907" .174535" .20944"
044 4.375" 13.7445" .038179" .190896" .229075"
(4 3/8)
Now here is the real judgement part, I take a straight edge and put it across the flywheel aligned with the right of the keyway cutout on the older Still saws, and put a black mark on the edge of the flywheel. Then I measure 200/1000 (a little less than 1/4") to the left and put another mark. I then align the straight edge with the mark on the left, and the center of the hole, and judge approximately how much of the key must be cut. I have the calipers opened to 20/1000 near by to help me with this judgement. I find the 20-25/1000 is about right for my saws.
The key on the 044 was approximately 80/1000 (It varied from .78-.84), so I reduced the top of it to 60/1000 thick.
The key on the 362 was 140/1000. Taking 1/3 off of that would have been far too much. I took 20/1000 off the left side with a triangle file. Not ideal, or as precise as cutting a removable key, but it worked. I would caution about advancing M-Tronic saws too much, as it can play havoc with the M-Troinics. In fact, even with this mild timing advance, my saw acted funky for about a week until it digested the changes. (Note: I just put the key, or flywheel in the vice and file by hand as accurately as I can, measuring frequently).
I'd like to know what others do, and to learn more about porting, or any suggestions that would improve upon what I do. Hope this is a little helpful.
I see the program took the spacing out of my chart, sorry about that.
And on M-Tronic saws, like the 362, where the key is 140/1000?
Never advanced one. I try to stay away from them. I like a little screwdriver still.
You can go til it pops in the cut and then back it off a hair.
Boozer
ArboristSite Operative
Hey you fellas build them and I will be plenty happy to run them.
Randy and Brad have inspired more than a few and the results have
advanced saw performance. You just know the engineers at Stihl & Husqvarna
(handcuffed as they may be) are all over these build threads.
Randy and Brad have inspired more than a few and the results have
advanced saw performance. You just know the engineers at Stihl & Husqvarna
(handcuffed as they may be) are all over these build threads.
Next idea...an easily variable flywheel...set timing with a set screw.
Engineers
Go!
Engineers
Go!
I like it! You could even adjust it based on temp (just like M-Tronic & auto tune do)!
