The Whining Thread

[Jacob J.]

Who paid the lowboy fees to get the buncher in there knowing that the stand wasn't big enough to cover its own cost?

Maybe they're putting in a gas station/mini-mart? I know Washington needs more of those. Perhaps a liquor store?

 

[Samlock]

Who's funding this lunacy? Who paid the lowboy fees to get the buncher in there knowing that the stand wasn't big enough to cover its own cost?

You can see that going on all the time over here. Explanation is: Mechanized logging equipment is tying up large amounts of capital and logging is highly seasonal business. When things get slow, you can send your human labor out to load the grocery shelves or to practice various naughty habits with crazy girlfriends. Capital costs however are running all the time, machine running or not. That's why the machine contractors are sometimes forced to accept rotten contracts, in order not to make profit but to reduce their losses. It's a well known secret over here, that a harvester hour costs approximately 100€ for the owner, but there is times that you can buy an hour with 50-60€. And nevermind the lowboy fees.

I'm not saying that this scenario would be true there, but that's my guess.

 

[madhatte]

Bet it's a liquor store. Lotsa kids in that neighborhood.

 

[slowp]

Bet it's a liquor store. Lotsa kids in that neighborhood.

We did vote in favor of liquor stores, kind of....


I just found out that The Wing had a major flaw. The factory failed to hook up a wire to charge the battery.
So, I kept having to put the original battery on my little charger, then got a new battery, which failed at saw camp, and took it to our RV guy (we actually have one here) who fixed it.

I hope it works. There's lots of electrical tape covering the cable now.

 

[Gologit]

You can see that going on all the time over here. Explanation is: Mechanized logging equipment is tying up large amounts of capital and logging is highly seasonal business. When things get slow, you can send your human labor out to load the grocery shelves or to practice various naughty habits with crazy girlfriends. Capital costs however are running all the time, machine running or not. That's why the machine contractors are sometimes forced to accept rotten contracts, in order not to make profit but to reduce their losses. It's a well known secret over here, that a harvester hour costs approximately 100€ for the owner, but there is times that you can buy an hour with 50-60€. And nevermind the lowboy fees.

I'm not saying that this scenario would be true there, but that's my guess.

It's just about the same here. Competition for available work is fierce and often the deciding factor is dollars.

I don't want to start sounding like some of the paranoid conspiracy theory wackos but sometimes a guy just has to wonder. If there's only one Big Timber Company that owns and controls vast areas it gets to do pretty much what it wants. In my area, on private ground, rates are determined by an army of bean counters far removed from the woods. They are extremely good at what they do. They have to be or they won't be employed long. They're the ones who decide just how big a carrot to dangle in front of the donkey...the donkey being the logger. The donkey never quite gets a full meal but he doesn't quite starve, either.

The bean counters can figure out exactly what it's going to cost to log any given piece of ground, given certain conditions and market. They'll factor in an additional amount of money that they'll pay the logger. The logger looks at it, figures if he can make a profit, and proceeds accordingly. If he won't take the job for the money being offered there are others who will.

If everything goes right the logger can make some money. But it's logging... and when does everything ever go right? At the end of the sale the logger, if he's very efficient, keeps his costs down, and is blessed with a great deal of luck will usually show a small profit. Not enough to really get ahead on, but enough to keep him in the game. That's in a good year. In a bad year you just try to keep the bank off your back, the crew paid, and the machinery patched together enough to run.

If he took the same amount of money that it takes to finance a logging company and used it to open a Burger King franchise he's probably see a better return on his investment. But he doesn't. He's a logger. Sometimes he wonders why.

 

[coastalfaller]

It's just about the same here. Competition for available work is fierce and often the deciding factor is dollars.

I don't want to start sounding like some of the paranoid conspiracy theory wackos but sometimes a guy just has to wonder. If there's only one Big Timber Company that owns and controls vast areas it gets to do pretty much what it wants. In my area, on private ground, rates are determined by an army of bean counters far removed from the woods. They are extremely good at what they do. They have to be or they won't be employed long. They're the ones who decide just how big a carrot to dangle in front of the donkey...the donkey being the logger. The donkey never quite gets a full meal but he doesn't quite starve, either.

The bean counters can figure out exactly what it's going to cost to log any given piece of ground, given certain conditions and market. They'll factor in an additional amount of money that they'll pay the logger. The logger looks at it, figures if he can make a profit, and proceeds accordingly. If he won't take the job for the money being offered there are others who will.

If everything goes right the logger can make some money. But it's logging... and when does everything ever go right? At the end of the sale the logger, if he's very efficient, keeps his costs down, and is blessed with a great deal of luck will usually show a small profit. Not enough to really get ahead on, but enough to keep him in the game. That's in a good year. In a bad year you just try to keep the bank off your back, the crew paid, and the machinery patched together enough to run.

If he took the same amount of money that it takes to finance a logging company and used it to open a Burger King franchise he's probably see a better return on his investment. But he doesn't. He's a logger. Sometimes he wonders why.

Very well said, Bob. Same here. We need those guys who will take it lower to weed themselves out.

 

[Gologit]

Very well said, Bob. Same here. We need those guys who will take it lower to weed themselves out.

They eventually weed themselves out but the damage they do seems to stay around. And it seems like there's always somebody coming along behind them that thinks they can do the same thing.

I lost out on a contract a few years back when I was under-bid by an outfit new to the area. It was a combination thinning, snag removal job with a 25% saw log allowance to help offset the costs. It was for one of our local counties and came up for bid every year. I'd been doing it for about ten years.

The company that got the bid had a crew comprised mostly of exchange students from south of the border. At no time did anybody think to check their immigration status. They were good workers but they were doomed to failure by the cut-and-run attitude of their bosses. The workers didn't know enough to be doing what they were doing and their supervisors didn't care. But they were cheap. Unbelievably cheap.

At the end of the job, despite repeated warnings and corrections by the county forester, and against any and all good advice, they left a half finished jack-strawed mess that took the next season just to clean up. On top of that, the owner of the company grabbed the log check and left the crew unpaid and stranded. Most of the crew, due to their status, had no real recourse.

But they were cheap.

 

[Samlock]

If he took the same amount of money that it takes to finance a logging company and used it to open a Burger King franchise he's probably see a better return on his investment. But he doesn't. He's a logger. Sometimes he wonders why.

Bob, you make that sound like predestination doctrine.

Makes sense, though. A logger logs because he's programmed to log.

 

[bert0168]

It's just about the same here. Competition for available work is fierce and often the deciding factor is dollars.

I don't want to start sounding like some of the paranoid conspiracy theory wackos but sometimes a guy just has to wonder. If there's only one Big Timber Company that owns and controls vast areas it gets to do pretty much what it wants. In my area, on private ground, rates are determined by an army of bean counters far removed from the woods. They are extremely good at what they do. They have to be or they won't be employed long. They're the ones who decide just how big a carrot to dangle in front of the donkey...the donkey being the logger. The donkey never quite gets a full meal but he doesn't quite starve, either.

The bean counters can figure out exactly what it's going to cost to log any given piece of ground, given certain conditions and market. They'll factor in an additional amount of money that they'll pay the logger. The logger looks at it, figures if he can make a profit, and proceeds accordingly. If he won't take the job for the money being offered there are others who will.

If everything goes right the logger can make some money. But it's logging... and when does everything ever go right? At the end of the sale the logger, if he's very efficient, keeps his costs down, and is blessed with a great deal of luck will usually show a small profit. Not enough to really get ahead on, but enough to keep him in the game. That's in a good year. In a bad year you just try to keep the bank off your back, the crew paid, and the machinery patched together enough to run.

If he took the same amount of money that it takes to finance a logging company and used it to open a Burger King franchise he's probably see a better return on his investment. But he doesn't. He's a logger. Sometimes he wonders why.

I'm a remodeling contractor and if you replace "logger" with "builder", you pretty much summarized what goes on here.

 

[bert0168]

It's just about the same here. Competition for available work is fierce and often the deciding factor is dollars.

I don't want to start sounding like some of the paranoid conspiracy theory wackos but sometimes a guy just has to wonder. If there's only one Big Timber Company that owns and controls vast areas it gets to do pretty much what it wants. In my area, on private ground, rates are determined by an army of bean counters far removed from the woods. They are extremely good at what they do. They have to be or they won't be employed long. They're the ones who decide just how big a carrot to dangle in front of the donkey...the donkey being the logger. The donkey never quite gets a full meal but he doesn't quite starve, either.

The bean counters can figure out exactly what it's going to cost to log any given piece of ground, given certain conditions and market. They'll factor in an additional amount of money that they'll pay the logger. The logger looks at it, figures if he can make a profit, and proceeds accordingly. If he won't take the job for the money being offered there are others who will.

If everything goes right the logger can make some money. But it's logging... and when does everything ever go right? At the end of the sale the logger, if he's very efficient, keeps his costs down, and is blessed with a great deal of luck will usually show a small profit. Not enough to really get ahead on, but enough to keep him in the game. That's in a good year. In a bad year you just try to keep the bank off your back, the crew paid, and the machinery patched together enough to run.

If he took the same amount of money that it takes to finance a logging company and used it to open a Burger King franchise he's probably see a better return on his investment. But he doesn't. He's a logger. Sometimes he wonders why.

I'm a remodeling contractor and if you replace "logger" with "builder", you pretty much summarized what goes on here.

I can empathize with what you guys deal with in what you do to live/survive.

Edit: sorry for the double post, damn computer .........

 

[2dogs]

Well crud. It looks like I've torn the catilage in my right knee, aka the good knee. I start physical therapy in a few days and then get a CT scan. Then the doc and I will make a decision on surgery. I'm glad I have good insurance.

 

[slowp]

Well crud. It looks like I've torn the catilage in my right knee, aka the good knee. I start physical therapy in a few days and then get a CT scan. Then the doc and I will make a decision on surgery. I'm glad I have good insurance.

That entitles you to whine a lot!

You can ski on it in 8 weeks after surgery but don't give ski lessons! Lessons will make it swell up. One of my ski buddies learned that.

 

[wowzers]

Can't whine today, kicking butt at work, great weather, and the good ole Mackie is back in action.

 

[Gologit]

Well crud. It looks like I've torn the catilage in my right knee, aka the good knee. I start physical therapy in a few days and then get a CT scan. Then the doc and I will make a decision on surgery. I'm glad I have good insurance.

Looks like a summer vacation for you. Can you still run jobs or will they make you stay home.?

 

[2dogs]

That entitles you to whine a lot!

You can ski on it in 8 weeks after surgery but don't give ski lessons! Lessons will make it swell up. One of my ski buddies learned that.

I love X-C skiing but my left knee objected to downhill skiing back in the sixties. I gonna have to stick to flatter ground these days.

 

[Metals406]

Sorry to hear about your knee Bill!

Hope ya heal up quick so you can get back in the action.

 

[madhatte]

It looks like I've torn the catilage in my right knee, aka the good knee.

Aw, man. That sucks. Heal up quickly and make the most of your down time.

 

[hammerlogging]

Aw, man. That sucks. Heal up quickly and make the most of your down time.

me too.

 

[KiwiBro]

Well crud. It looks like I've torn the catilage in my right knee, aka the good knee. I start physical therapy in a few days and then get a CT scan. Then the doc and I will make a decision on surgery. I'm glad I have good insurance.

You got clicking in there? Meniscal tear? Here's hoping just a small one that will heal itself and the forces causing it didn't do any ligament damage, but there's a fine line between leaving to heal and arthroscopic surgery and if I can give one bit of advice, when the doc says stay off it, STAY THE HECK OFF IT, b/c such tears, depending where it is, may not get decent bloody supply and if the same thing only partially repairs and tears again, it's a hassle that could stay with you forever.
Personally: 18 months 2 weeks and 4 days before I could even jog 20 feet again after knee surgery - ACL with meniscus tearing. When you go from running 100 miles a week pre-injury to taking a month post-op before you can even safely walk to your letterbox, it knocks the byjesus out of your mojo. Don't be an idiot like me and try doing more than the doc or physio suggests, and also, if ever you are not happy with those charged with looking after you - docs, physios, the people at the gym helping with rehab, ask to change.

I could go on and on about this but won't. I just hope you are a good healer and the damage isn't too bad.

 

[coastalfaller]

They eventually weed themselves out but the damage they do seems to stay around. And it seems like there's always somebody coming along behind them that thinks they can do the same thing.

I lost out on a contract a few years back when I was under-bid by an outfit new to the area. It was a combination thinning, snag removal job with a 25% saw log allowance to help offset the costs. It was for one of our local counties and came up for bid every year. I'd been doing it for about ten years.

The company that got the bid had a crew comprised mostly of exchange students from south of the border. At no time did anybody think to check their immigration status. They were good workers but they were doomed to failure by the cut-and-run attitude of their bosses. The workers didn't know enough to be doing what they were doing and their supervisors didn't care. But they were cheap. Unbelievably cheap.

At the end of the job, despite repeated warnings and corrections by the county forester, and against any and all good advice, they left a half finished jack-strawed mess that took the next season just to clean up. On top of that, the owner of the company grabbed the log check and left the crew unpaid and stranded. Most of the crew, due to their status, had no real recourse.

But they were cheap.

Yep, there always is someone willing to take their place. Especially with falling. A guy has a saw and a crummy so now he's going to be a "falling contractor".

I have a similar story too. There was a job I bid on three different times, yep, same job. Was cancelled each time as it was during the down turn. I won the bid each time except for the last one. Well wouldn't you know it, that's the time the job actually went ahead. Nice OG Douglas Fir on steep broken ground. Required lots of jacking and springboarding. The company that got it I don't think knew what a jack was, never mind owned even one. Made toothpicks out of this high value timber. Oh well, they got the falling done cheap, right?!