This is one of the reasons I run AV gas in the saws

[Johny Utah]

When used as an antiknock agent, alcohol will cause fuel to absorb moisture from the air. Over time fuel humidity can rise leading to rusting and corrosion in the fuel line. Whereas TEL is highly soluble in gasoline, ethanol is poorly soluble and that solubility decreases as fuel humidity increases. Over time, droplets and pools of water can form in the fuel system creating a risk for fuel line icing. High fuel humidity can also raise issues of biological contamination, as certain bacteria can grow on the surface of the water/gasoline interface thus forming bacterial mats in the fuel system. TEL's biocidal properties helped prevent fuel contamination and degradation from bacterial growth.
In most Western countries this additive went out of use in the late 20th century because of the concerns over pollution of air and soil (e.g., the areas around roads) and the accumulative neurotoxicity of lead. The use of TEL as a fuel additive spoils catalytic converters, which became mandatory to meet emissions regulations from the 1970s on in the West. The need for TEL was lessened by several advances in automotive engineering and petroleum chemistry. Lower oil prices promoted the development of low compression engines that were not as sensitive to gasoline quality. Other antiknock additives of various toxicities (MMT, MTBE, ETBE) and safer methods for making higher octane blending stocks (reformate, iso-octane) reduced the need for TEL.

 

[nmurph]

Unless you are running saws with compressions higher than 200psi, you are actually degrading the saw's performance. The high octane actually resist ignition to a point that the motor runs hotter and makes less power.

Yes, we all know about ethanol in fuel. But the damage it causes is greatly over-estimated. If you use fresh mix, say less than 2 months old, and don't leave it sitting in your saws for 2 yrs, it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. Yes, you hear of people claiming that it has damaged the fuel lines, and yes, it does degrade rubber faster, but I run it in everything I own and don't seem to have more fuel related problems than the next person. Those are replaceable maintenance items that I expect to wear out. When I open my fuel lids and see what looks like a Petri dish inside, or the fuel line ices up on a 103° south georgia day, or rust forms in my rubber fuel lines, then I will start to be concerned. Until then, I have better things to worry about.

 

[CTYank]

Couple of points:

Does J.U. consider 100LL (low-lead) av-gas to be high-lead, maybe?

If you're going to store mix for long in unsealed container, you might want to add a small amount of acetone to keep alcohol/water solute dissolved in gasoline, like "dry-gas." Just don't start acetone-sniffing. :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Nitroman]

Couple of points:

Does J.U. consider 100LL (low-lead) av-gas to be high-lead, maybe?

If you're going to store mix for long in unsealed container, you might want to add a small amount of acetone to keep alcohol/water solute dissolved in gasoline, like "dry-gas." Just don't start acetone-sniffing. :hmm3grin2orange:

Isopropyl alcohol would be better.

 

[rmihalek]

How does acetone keep ethanol soluble in gasoline?

 

[Roanoker494]

The closest thing to AV fuel around here is CAM 2 race fuel, unless you own a airplane.

Here is some information from the Sunoco website. Locally I have the 110 leaded and 104 unleaded available for about $8 a gallon.

Cam2 CAM 2 RACING GASOLINE

"Cam 2" is the generic name used for Sunoco Race Fuels. You can expect the same consistent high quality performance from Cam 2 Racing Gasoline that you get from Sunoco Race Fuels because the names are interchangeable. It is the same product, made in the same facility by the same people. We use this name wherever the "Sunoco" brand name cannot be used, such as gasoline outlets which carry a competing brand of street gasoline. Cam 2 is available in 110, 112, and 116 octane leaded, and 100 and 104 unleaded. Please refer to the specs and MSDS for the Sunoco fuels listed above.

EDIT:
This was just for informational purposes and I would never even consider spending that kind of money to run my chainsaws. As mentioned above I believe the ethanol stories are greatly exaggerated and it has only caused me problems in my older saws, which a new carb kit and fuel line has fixed right up.

 

[J.W Younger]

How does acetone keep ethanol soluble in gasoline?

Acetone does have some neat qualities, not that I would ever consider putting any in my fuel tanks. Its one of those rare chemicals that will mix with water or gas as well as methanol and to a certain extent nitromethane.

 

[Johny Utah]

Couple of points:

Does J.U. consider 100LL (low-lead) av-gas to be high-lead, maybe?

If you're going to store mix for long in unsealed container, you might want to add a small amount of acetone to keep alcohol/water solute dissolved in gasoline, like "dry-gas." Just don't start acetone-sniffing. :hmm3grin2orange:

Yes I understand it is the lowest leaded grade available which is the catalyst for the octane rating. To much octane will not hurt anything and yes my saw is modified, so I would rather over kill things then kill the top end of the saw from crap fuel. I was a mechanic for an Agriculture dist and the manufactures were warning about the dangers of ethanol damage being caused on $300,000 equipment. So if those engineers are against it it's not because they aren't educated enough on the subject. This is what is primarily used in fuel today instead of lead, I don't know how much better or worse it is.

Methyl tert-butyl ether, also known as methyl tertiary butyl ether and MTBE, is a chemical compound with molecular formula C5H12O. MTBE is a volatile, flammable and colorless liquid that is immiscible with water. MTBE has a minty odor vaguely reminiscent of diethyl ether, leading to unpleasant taste and odor in water. MTBE is a gasoline additive, used as an oxygenate and to raise the octane number, although its use has declined in the United States in response to environmental and health concerns. It has been found to easily pollute large quantities of groundwater when gasoline with MTBE is spilled or leaked at gas stations. MTBE is also used in organic chemistry as a relatively inexpensive solvent with properties comparable to diethyl ether but with a higher boiling point and lower solubility in water. It is also used medically to dissolve gallstones.

 

[Steve NW WI]

I was a mechanic for an Agriculture dist and the manufactures were warning about the dangers of ethanol damage being caused on $300,000 equipment.\

Dang right. Ethanol should never be used in diesel engines. I haven't seen a piece of ag machinery built in the last 30 years with a gas motor. (Yes I'm calling BS here)

By the way, your cut and pastes do very little to show your point without either giving the full article or at least a link to it, so we know the background to which the information is being given.

 

[masculator]

what about MEK or Xylene johnny? maybe toluene? honestly as you pointed out in one of your other posts johnny utah, chainsaw motors are not that advanced, HENCE they do not need ultra high octane fuel or for that matter lead or other anti knock agents. I run all my saws on premium unleaded (mid rated fuel) (our octane rating system is a little different to the one in the US) 95 RON non ethanol petrol. The servos here that sell the ethanol crud even state on the bowser that it is not suitable for 2 strokes and aviation use. Our 95 ron is I think what americans call 91. If this is un available I run with the standard unleaded non ethanol. I have just pulled down a saw I have used for more than 3000 hours over the last 18 years and probably closer to 5000 hours even the rings were still acceptable, The bore was near perfect, only reason I pulled it down was cause it suffered some accidental crankcase damage.

I have seen ethanol fuel cause problems on more than one occasion. One instance that I will always remember was pruning pine trees, I used a couple of 009L pruning saws which had the fuel tank as part of the crankcase. Any way the boss got fuel from a different source to what we normally did and it had ethanol in it. the first tank I put through the saw you could notice a lack of "oomph" in the saw, anyway went to put the second tank in it and found that the rubber seal on the cap had gone all sticky and glued itself to the sealing face of the tank. On getting the cap undone I found that all of the paint on the interior of the tank had started to blister and peal. promptly the saw gunked up and fouled the plug and gunked up the spark arrestor to the point of having to pull it down and clean it. After running it for one day I told the boss it was not suitable for use in the saws and from that day on ALL fuel to go through the saws was ethanol free. It cost me about 5 hours fixing both saws, not the thing you need after a 14 hr day. Thankfully I had mixed a can of the good fuel as well and was able to get through the day. Ethanol is CRAP and is not suitable for 2 stroke engines. The biggest issue is that it settles out and you never know the exact concentration in the fuel you are getting, it may be 2% or it may be 25% or even more despite the E10 statement. Honestly you are better off using standard unleaded than having to chase "EXOTIC" fuels and even more so than using ETHANOL blend fuels.

 

[Sprintcar]

maybe I is smarte enough to run water in my saws.

The claims concerning which fuel to run in a stock or performance two stroke engine have been beat to death. I have ran 10%, 91, 92, 94, 100LL, even some VP racing gasoline, won't do that again at 16.00 dollars a gallon. Neal stated in his response to this thread that FRESH fuel, regardless of makeup is the best defense against fuel related problems.

No bout burning water, maybe with enough engineering analysis we can make that work.

 

[masculator]

maybe I is smarte enough to run water in my saws.

The claims concerning which fuel to run in a stock or performance two stroke engine have been beat to death. I have ran 10%, 91, 92, 94, 100LL, even some VP racing gasoline, won't do that again at 16.00 dollars a gallon. Neal stated in his response to this thread that FRESH fuel, regardless of makeup is the best defense against fuel related problems.

No bout burning water, maybe with enough engineering analysis we can make that work.

If your spelling is anything to go by you wont.... just joking and no offense meant, but to run a saw on water would involve being able to produce a higher electrical current than the power output of the saw would be capable of producing to convert the water into hydrogen and oxygen, or "browns gas". As it stands It is still a pipe dream to be able to run a motor on water alone. there are also problems with electrolysis causing issues such as the white rust seen in a thread seen on here not long ago, and with massive corrosion and other issues caused by the massive release of electrical energy from the combustion of said gas.

 

[nmurph]

Sprintcar maybe from Guysie, but he's no fool.

 

[Sprintcar]

My first post was meant to be on the lighter side, however if you want to burn water in your saw, add this;

Hydrazine was first used as a rocket fuel during World War II for the Messerschmitt Me 163B (the first rocket-powered fighter plane), under the code name B-Stoff (hydrazine hydrate). When mixed with methanol (M-Stoff) and water it was called C-Stoff.

Hydrazine is also used as a low-power monopropellant for the maneuvering thrusters of spacecraft, and the Space Shuttle's auxiliary power units (APUs). In addition, monopropellant hydrazine-fueled rocket engines are often used in terminal descent of spacecraft. A collection of such engines was used in both Viking program landers as well as the Phoenix lander launched in August 2007.

In all hydrazine monopropellant engines, the hydrazine is passed by a catalyst such as iridium metal supported by high-surface-area alumina (aluminium oxide) or carbon nanofibers,[24] or more recently molybdenum nitride on alumina,[25] which causes it to decompose into ammonia, nitrogen gas, and hydrogen gas according to the following reactions:

3 N2H4 → 4 NH3 + N2
N2H4 → N2 + 2 H2
4 NH3 + N2H4 → 3 N2 + 8 H2
These reactions are extremely exothermic (the catalyst chamber can reach 800 °C in a matter of milliseconds,[24]) and they produce large volumes of hot gas from a small volume of liquid hydrazine,[25] making it a fairly efficient thruster propellant with a vacuum specific impulse of about 220 seconds.[26]

Hydrazine is also used in F-16 Fighter aircraft to power the EPU (emergency power unit). It is a small generator that supplies emergency hydraulic or electric power in the event that main power is lost in the aircraft.

Other variants of hydrazine that are used as rocket fuel are monomethylhydrazine, (CH3)NH(NH2) (also known as MMH) and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine, (CH3)2N(NH2) (also known as UDMH). These derivatives are used in two-component rocket fuels, often together with nitrogen tetroxide, N2O4, sometimes known as dinitrogen tetroxide. This reaction is extremely exothermic, as a rocket fuel must be, and the burning is also hypergolic, which means that the burning starts without any external ignition source.

You can also save on spark plugs, (another subject beat to death), as noted in in the last above paragraph.

 

[Roanoker494]

Water power technology is already here but it would not be practical on a chainsaw due to the size of the equipment needed to break the water down. Another issue, that was already mentioned, is the exhaust is water and that would cause major issues in a chainsaw.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vKM4pb9Oxrg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[nmurph]

My first post was meant to be on the lighter side, however if you want to burn water in your saw, add this;

Hydrazine was first used as a rocket fuel during World War II for the Messerschmitt Me 163B (the first rocket-powered fighter plane), under the code name B-Stoff (hydrazine hydrate). When mixed with methanol (M-Stoff) and water it was called C-Stoff.

Hydrazine is also used as a low-power monopropellant for the maneuvering thrusters of spacecraft, and the Space Shuttle's auxiliary power units (APUs). In addition, monopropellant hydrazine-fueled rocket engines are often used in terminal descent of spacecraft. A collection of such engines was used in both Viking program landers as well as the Phoenix lander launched in August 2007.

In all hydrazine monopropellant engines, the hydrazine is passed by a catalyst such as iridium metal supported by high-surface-area alumina (aluminium oxide) or carbon nanofibers,[24] or more recently molybdenum nitride on alumina,[25] which causes it to decompose into ammonia, nitrogen gas, and hydrogen gas according to the following reactions:

3 N2H4 → 4 NH3 + N2
N2H4 → N2 + 2 H2
4 NH3 + N2H4 → 3 N2 + 8 H2
These reactions are extremely exothermic (the catalyst chamber can reach 800 °C in a matter of milliseconds,[24]) and they produce large volumes of hot gas from a small volume of liquid hydrazine,[25] making it a fairly efficient thruster propellant with a vacuum specific impulse of about 220 seconds.[26]

Hydrazine is also used in F-16 Fighter aircraft to power the EPU (emergency power unit). It is a small generator that supplies emergency hydraulic or electric power in the event that main power is lost in the aircraft.

Other variants of hydrazine that are used as rocket fuel are monomethylhydrazine, (CH3)NH(NH2) (also known as MMH) and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine, (CH3)2N(NH2) (also known as UDMH). These derivatives are used in two-component rocket fuels, often together with nitrogen tetroxide, N2O4, sometimes known as dinitrogen tetroxide. This reaction is extremely exothermic, as a rocket fuel must be, and the burning is also hypergolic, which means that the burning starts without any external ignition source.

You can also save on spark plugs, (another subject beat to death), as noted in in the last above paragraph.

Dang, Jerr, you did pay attention in Mr. Knott's class!!!!

 

[Dennis Gauge]

Isopropyl alcohol would be better.

Why would you put MORE alcohol into a fuel mixture that's already around 10% alcohol in the first place?

 

[Battenkiller]

Water power technology is already here but it would not be practical on a chainsaw due to the size of the equipment needed to break the water down. Another issue, that was already mentioned, is the exhaust is water and that would cause major issues in a chainsaw.

???

What is HHO? Same thing as H20 far as I know. He's just using electrolysis to turn water into H2 and O2 gases and then re-burning them in the torch. Hydrogen welding torches are nothing new, they've been used for years by jewelers for working on platinum.

Also, water is a major component of any fossil fuel combustion, that and CO2 gas. There's simply no way to get around emitting water from an internal combustion engine.

 

[madhatte]

???
What is HHO?

Why, Dihydrogen Monoxide, of course, only the most insidious threat ever foisted upon an ignorant populace!

 

[Battenkiller]

Why, Dihydrogen Monoxide, of course, only the most insidious threat ever foisted upon an ignorant populace!

Right, right... What was I thinking?:msp_wink: