Throwbag nightmare

[outofmytree]

That's painful, outofmytree. Yesterday I set three ropes in under ten minutes, same crown, for the tree I'm heading to this morning. Two were throws, one a bigshot. I do this on wide spreading crowns to facilitate aerial traverses.

I had a realization on how I hope I can help the frustrated throwers. I'll try, but I need to take a couple pictures today.

Throwing should be happiness, not hassle.

May the shrew be with you.

Oh piss off!

 

[RAG66]

Hi guys I'm new here and I love this thread. I do have a big shot and bag, I don't seem to get the chance to use it much because most of my work is removal. The frustration of a clean shot is real but I'm finding with practice I'm doing OK. Some of the stories are great.

 

[Golf]

When I started to use the throw ball a few years back, I often cursed then took out the extension ladder and a 3-piece pruner to install my rope. I could get that rope in the crotch in less than 10 minutes. I practiced the throw ball when ever I can and now I am proficient at it. The only time I would have problems is when there is a lot of water sprouts on the tree. As Single Jack had said before, practice, practice and always keep your eyes on the target.

 

[tree md]

The throwbag was one of the first tools I was introduced to when I started climbing. Always loved it for the time it saves. One of my favorite tools.

However, when I am good, I am really good with it and when I am bad I really suck with it.

Nothing will make me start pulling my hair out quicker than when it takes me an hour screwing with a throwbag trying to get a line set in a tree. And yes, I have spent an hour doing so before. When you look up and see guys standing around watching you struggle with the throwline and realize the clock is ticking it is an infuriating feeling!

I have one rule on my crew: No one touches my throwlines and ropes but me!

I put a kid to work a couple of years ago and he had the opposite of the Midas touch. In other words everything he touched turned to ####! I don't know if he was on dope or what but he had every rope and throwline I owned in tangles and it literally took me three hours longer to accomplish the job than it would have if the kid had not been there.

I had 5 or 6 trees to prune including a very large Red Oak that I absolutely had to have a thowline to get into the tree. The kid kept screwing with my ropes and had them in knots every time I turned around. He even managed to take a strap off of one of my rope bags and lost a strap to the leg scabbard for my handsaw. And this was on his first day!

By the time I got to the big Red Oak I had smoke coming out of my ears. I took a couple of shots trying to get my line in the tree and got distracted by another crew member for a second. By the time I turned back around the kid had "helped" me gather up my loose throwline. I don't know how he did it but in the minute I was distracted the kid had my line so screwed up that it literally took me two hours to get it untangled. I have never before or since took so much time out of a job to mess with a line. I had to let him go after that day. I felt bad for the kid but it was better for my sanity to let him go. He just fiddled with stuff to no end! I told him that I didn't know what he was on but he needed to get off of the stuff before he got himself as jammed up as he had my throwline...

 

[Tree Machine]

I put a kid to work a couple of years ago and he had the opposite of the Midas touch

That's called the Dumas touch.

TreeMD, that is a great trial and tribulation story. As for the guy you let go, why did he come to Indianapolis and how did he find me?

I have the same rule, don't mess with ropes, don't mess with shotline. That's actually pretty liberating for the ground help, one less thing to be responsible for. Besides, I really, really, really enjoy the whole shotline thing and I think the fellow friends out there who are having problems, I think we can turn that around, I really do.

Golf, you're fairly new here. Thanks for your input.

RAG66, first post. Welcome to the forum, good to have you, make yourself at home.

Oh piss off!

Ahhh, a verbal Aussie hug.

 

[Tree Machine]

I came across this image, dated 2001. Crap bags as I remember. Stiff . Before I discovered the Harrison Rocket.

A couple inches to the left and it would have probably been OK. I had to climb to get this one back.

(note: always have a second, backup bag and line setup so you don't really have to break stride in an instance such as this.)

 

[Tree Machine]

That's painful, outofmytree. Yesterday I set three ropes in under ten minutes, same crown, for the tree I'm heading to this morning.

Here's the tree, and the short story behind the story.

We'd pruned an adjacent backyard tree, got it all cleaned up, everything put back in place, power blown, fence panel put back up, and then the homewowner, very happy with the whole process asked me to do the other backyard tree.

The next morning it was going to be 9 degrees F. (-13 C) and I saw rope setting with an employee hanging out as potentially, really painful. Set the ropes now to facilitate a quick start in the morning.

So right around dusk I started to set the ropes. Homeowner watching, the first set took a few throws. Actually, I had it on the second throw, but it went over a small branch above the target crotch and there was the decision, to twiddle the shotbag over the little branch and hope it drops through the crotch, or pull the rope up and see if you can get the little branch to break, dropping the rope in. I chose to wiggle the bag over, but as the moment would have it, the bag dropped onto and sat right in the fork. This is painful. You're right there, but there's nothing you can do but pull it back down and throw again. That was the left rope in the pic, 11.5 mm Tachyon.

The middle rope was nailed on the second throw, 11 mm KMIII.

The third, the homeowner was doubting. I pointed to a really high crotch in the section of the tree adjacent to the power lines. I went and got the bigshot. I explained that I needed to overshoot the fork, but stop the bag before it went out over the power lines. Timing was so very critical because if the bag went too far and I put a stop to it, it could swing back down over the power lines down lower and and do a multi-wind around the upper line(s). Too soon and the bag's travel could be aborted and the shot missed. This shot was a beauty. In the critical moment I stepped on the reel and stepped off in the same second, stopping further travel and sending the bag to the ground. I got to do the 'stir the kettle' dance with the bigshot pole with the white dude's overbite with an 'Uh huh.....uh huh..... uh huh-uh huh'. I added some ballast, pulled the weight back up and got the line traced down, parallel.

It's hard not to be happy. This was an 85-foot shot as my 150-foot rope hung fully up in the air. I used that rope to pull a 200' 13 mm Stable Braid back up and over, not the funnest rope to climb on but zero stretch, for sure, which I like.

 

[Adkpk]

Lot of big wood in that tree. Good example of a tree that needs to have multiple lines set.

 

[Tree Machine]

Lots of obstacles below, hot tub, porch, a couple river birches, fence on one side, power lines on the other. Good, clean fun. None of the cuts were big, but almost everything had to be lowered on rope. Smartest thing I did was lower on a rope with eye terminations at each end, then use each end alternatively.



It occurred to me that I throw two different ways, depending. If its a low throw, pulling a hanger or rigging a limb from the ground, I just throw it one-handed, gripping the line and sending it on its way, one hand doing it all, bag swinging to the right side of my body. This is how I throw when accuracy and height are not big factors.

I used to do the cradle throw, a cool method, but I had two hands in on the throw, and each had to be released at exactly identical times, with great precision and exactness. The bag swings between the legs, both hands throw, both hands release. More variables, but you can get great height, I had problems with accuracy.

I've tried these different throws, with different bags, gloves on, gloves off, 2.2 mm, 1.75, every different line I can buy.

Only recently did I realize that how I throw currently has given the best results. I morphed into this somewhere along the line and it works really well for the higher throws where accuracy is critical important. How to describe,..... its a two-handed throw where one hand is doing the throw but the hand not doing the throw is doing the release. It can be an off-to-the-side throw or a between-the-legs throw, either way seems to work well, but I tend to do between the legs, the center line keeps my throw, well, centered.

Does this make any sense?

 

[Dutch295]

Icy nasty morning here in Carolina... I've enjoyed reading this post. It's nice to know I'm not the only one that has experienced a lot of frustration when it comes to setting a throw line but still, what an invaluable tool.

Bermie, the picture attached has really worked well for me. Not sure of the proper terminology but it's basically a double slip knot or slip knot with a second bite. The bag on the left is dressed and ready to go and the one on the right is a very loose starting point. The long running end and the large bite is for picture purposes only. I've never had a bag come off since switching to this and if I miss it's as simple as pulling the running end, removing the bag and not taking a chance of getting the bag caught as I pull the line back (it's easy to get a little lazy and just pull the bag back through the tree... this can be a bad idea).

To all the guys using biners and small snap combos: Don't you give up quite a bit on height capability due to the added weight / does the combo "fly" as well? Just curious as I've never tried it.

 

[tree md]

Yeah, this is a great thread. I have seen a lot of new tricks I'll be incorporating into my throwline technique here.

TM, Nice work! I will often set my lines the evening (if I have time) before I do the job as well to keep my frustration level down and not have guys standing around watching me while they are on the clock. It's actually relaxing and fun for me when I am not pressured by time and worried about labor costs. I like to have all the time I need with no pressure. I do usually bring my main rope hand with me because he likes to hang with me (and vice versa). Lol, he told me a couple of months ago that I should have been a cowboy. I winked at him and told him that I am a cowboy!

Thanks to all who have posted pics. Very informative!

 

[Adkpk]

Does this make any sense?

None what-so-ever.

 

[outofmytree]

Thanks for the stories and pictures TM. Glad you understand Aus love!

 

[Tree Machine]

And I love the Aussies!

And thanks to everyone who's contributing. Its keeping this thread very lively.
11 pages and no flaming, no derails, this HAS to be an Arboristsite record, ha ha.

Personally, I think it all revolves around some mutual, global admiration for Bermie. :love1:


At the core of it all, we all seem to be in agreement with one thing; The throwline is a very valuable tool. And that the throwline can be an intensely frustrating tool. It can be the spearhead of a good, money-making day, or it can make the money clock tick backwards as your crew smokes cigarettes and waits for you to get done flailing with your little line.

I think it's clear that there's a big gap of how the throwline can either be a nightmare, or the cause for joy.

And the bottom line here is that inefficiency will cost you. We don't get paid to set lines, however, so much revolves around it. We get paid to do tree care, so the more swiftly we can get up there, the better we can make a living. I know this is a really obvious statement, but time is money.

It doesn't make sense for me to feel your pain, but I do. I've been in these dark moments where I think about getting a ladder, or worse, advancing the line with a monkey fist. Some might even climb that pruning job with spikes.

Outofmytree, your half hour setting the rope, that hurt
TreeMD, throw after throw with the crew watching, ouch!
Bermie, thunking peoples' roofs, asassinating low-flying seagulls, sending the crew scattering to the safety of the truck, freaking out the locals living nearby..... I both weep and giggle at the same time.

The throwline is not an ancient art. In fact, its relatively new. Yea, some guy in the 1930s or whenever probably attached a crescent wrench to some sisal cord and threw it up over a limb, but it was anything but mainstream, kinda like there were computers in the 60's but none in OUR hands until the 80s. Then advances in software, the personal computer and the world wide web and now our children are teaching us. The playing field has been leveled.

Accurate, consistent throwline work, before the advent of dyneema, and before decent shotbags and before the BigShot kept the user limited by virtue of the limitations imposed by the gear and we could only advance up to a point. This is all only about ten years old as of this writing. Bigshot invented 1998, Dyneema/ZingIt/FlingIt some time there after. The new shotline winder. The playing field has been leveled.

These days with the high-tech, high-strength shotlines, great bags, the shotline winder reel for unparalleled line management and the BigShot, we are now in an age where the gap between agony and extacy can be closed. The gear is great. ALL of you can be consistent, high-accuracy, professional line setters. This is true because you can get the modern gear and you believe you can excel at it. If you're having problems, its just because you're at a crux stage, a hump, that once you're over, your throwline experience will be forever changed for the better.

Then, I will feel your joy, not your pain. We can think of this as the tide that raises all boats.




Ummm, what was the question again?

 

[Tree Machine]

Oh yea, Dutch, asking about the effect of the mini biner/snap on the throw and Adkpk on the Tree Machine method of release.


I need to go outside and take a couple pictures, I think they'll help.

Also, I need to search out an exact weight on the mini biner to see what exactly a 12 oz shotbag actually weighs, since the two are thrown together as one.

 

[Bermie]

And I love the Aussies!

And thanks to everyone who's contributing. Its keeping this thread very lively.
11 pages and no flaming, no derails, this HAS to be an Arboristsite record, ha ha.

Personally, I think it all revolves around some mutual, global admiration for Bermie.

Awww...give over!:blush:

I'm glad we're all discussing the realities...some people are having difficulties, and some are good at it, and everyone is sharing good stuff!
Carry on troopsopcorn:

 

[Tree Machine]

Your wish is my command, Ms. Bermie.

Here's a picture of how I do my throws. I don't know when I started this, and it took 10 pages of this thread for me to really realize what I'm doing.
This is how it looks. In the last dozen shotline threads over the years, and through the different arborist forums, I have never shown this.

I think it works well because release precision doesn't have to be so exact and immediate and perfect. With this style throw I believe you have some fraction of a second wiggle room for release. I think this is true because if you think about it, your throw hand isn't gripping the line, it's just feeling the pressure of the line. Your finger grip of the other hand doesn't need to be as tight as the traditional one-hand throw because the line draping over the throw hand has picked up a moderate amount of friction, lessening the pull force and grip pressure necessary of your release hand.

I tend to rock the bag back and forth a few times to get the 'feel'. Initially I look at my hand, the swinging bag and that the swing is in direct line with the target.

Feet a little wider than shoulder-width.

Then I look up at the target, the bag still swinging. I slide my throw hand down or up to sense the length of the 'pendulum', longer length for longer, more forceful throws, shorter pendulum length for shorter throws.

I rock both hands in unison. The movement of the hands, though, is very minimal. The pendulum swing both smooth and gentle.

The throw hand doesn't actually grip the line, ever. My thumb may come down on it, but that's probably remnants of old habits, there's no actual gripping of the line by the throw hand.

Then I muster the concentration of the cat, summon forth my inner shrew,

when you let 'er rip, the relief of line pressure from your throwing (front) hand is signal for the release of the line by the fingers of the back hand. This is where you get the fraction of a second grace period.

and WHAM! Drain that sucker!

 

[tree md]

I use the same throw style as you TM.

I make sure the area is clear and that there is nothing for my line to snag on (like a twig or my foot), throw with my right hand and use my left hand as a break. Using one hand for a break works well to abort bad throws and saves time in not having to pull your line back through the tree on a bad throw. I will also use my offhand as a break when I need to stop short, like when there are lines on the other side of the tree or I am trying to hit one isolated branch.

I never shoot a line with the big shot when there is the possibility that I may overshoot a power line on the other side of the tree but if the crotch I am trying to hit is low enough I will do it with a throw as I can use my breaking hand to stop short of the line. If there is a danger of overshooting a power line I simply set the line with a safe throw into a lower crotch and advance my rope once I'm in the tree.

I like to hit isolated dead limbs using the breaking method and yank them out of the tree. I do this a lot when I have dead tips that would be time consuming to prune and are too slim to really get out on. I do a lot on trees that I haven't been paid for but look unsightly. People notice and appreciate the little extra effort. Plus it is excellent practice on throwing technique.

 

[Tree Machine]

EXCELLENT POST, MD!

Aborting a clearly bad throw is essential, otherwise you're letting a clearly bad throw go the distance and then you have to retrieve that full distance to get back to square one.

The second, back release hand can form a ring around the line at release, by touching your finger tip to your thumb tip. The other three fingers clamp to stop the rope. This I seem to use only on short throws. You can get off three or four attempts in 30 seconds by aborting/pulling the bag back your direction, re-throw. This is classic 'pull out hanging limbs' method.


Thanks, TreeMD. I don't feel alone.

 

[tree md]

My next experiment is going to be with an old 30# recurve bow. I plan to start playing with it and seeing how well I can shoot a line into a tree as soon as the snow melts here... Great archery practice as well as shotline practice...