Tool Forum

[WesternSaw]

ProMac

Sorry to say I can't be of any help to you at all.
Hopefully we can attract some more fellas here and they may have the knowledge you need.
Lawrence

 

[fdoberman]

Oh, I also pulled an entire Square D NEMA Type 1 contactor box, 8735? or something like that. It can run 230, but my compressor receives exactly 240 at the switch.

Also, it's a three pole design, and has the reset box that mounts under the main box, and the reversing box that mounts to the right of the main box.

Anyone know how to wire one of these up to a compressor motor, mine is three wire, one black (or red, don't remember which color as of now) and one white, and one solid copper ground.

The wire running from the breaker box to the compressor switch is 10/2.

I also noticed that the main starter box has 110/120 capability... I was thinking for extra cooling of the compressor pump and electric motor, and of the hopefully soon to be added aftercooler, I would use an old furnace blower, running on 120. Can I wire that into the box, or is the 20 amp breaker gonna trip trying to start up both the compressor and the cooling blower at the same time?

Yes, I am preforming mods to make this 'cheap POS' compressor beat the hell out of nearly any 700 dollar new compressor you could ever buy. The air should be very dry, very cool, and the compressor should be real cool even after running constantly to keep up with a spray gun or the like.

Oh, I am also going to pull the air tanks off of the same press that I took the starter boxes out of. Each tank looks to be about 10, maybe 15 or 20 gallon. They both have lots of oil in them from the Showa oiler that kept things lubed up in that press. So... bet there is no rust to speak of inside of those tanks. I plan on adding them to the farther ends of the lines to increase capacity to the system as a whole, and install quick connects so that I can use them only when I need to. (yes, the boss said I could salvage what I want... gotta punch out to do so though. I'm fine with that. It's still a hell of a lot cheaper than buying these parts new or even used)

No, the oiler is still there at work, in case they need it for a press they happen to buy at a later date.

Wow, quite some rambling there.

P.S. Sorry, no pics of tools... got home from work, ate supper, then went to college. :bang: Forgot all about it. Going to do the same tomorrow. Work, eat, school. <--- Man, I hate that word... :msp_thumbdn:

I'm willing to take a stab at what I think is most of your question, but honestly I went crosseyed trying to understand what you posted.

I think youhave a magnetic starter you're trying to wire up to start & stop a compressor, but I have no idea of the size starter, or HP motor.
The reversing coment also baffles me, did you get a contactor that has an interlock and was originally used for up/down or something similar?

Your comments on after coolers also confuse me. Are you attempting to build a cooler/seperator between the compressor and receiver, such as a Franzinator, or are you planning to rewrite the Laws of Physics as so many people think can be done.

Your mention of additional "tanks" to achieve distributed storage also concern me a bit since you mention them being hydraulic tanks and containing oil as well as painting.

How about you break it into 3 posts; 1 on the compressor starter & motor, 1 on the "aftercooler and a 3rd on the air line system. Please include motor horsepower and starter size which should be on a paper label inside the cover.

 

[Brmorgan]

Oh, I also pulled an entire Square D NEMA Type 1 contactor box, 8735? or something like that. It can run 230, but my compressor receives exactly 240 at the switch.

Also, it's a three pole design, and has the reset box that mounts under the main box, and the reversing box that mounts to the right of the main box.

Anyone know how to wire one of these up to a compressor motor, mine is three wire, one black (or red, don't remember which color as of now) and one white, and one solid copper ground.

The wire running from the breaker box to the compressor switch is 10/2.

I also noticed that the main starter box has 110/120 capability... I was thinking for extra cooling of the compressor pump and electric motor, and of the hopefully soon to be added aftercooler, I would use an old furnace blower, running on 120. Can I wire that into the box, or is the 20 amp breaker gonna trip trying to start up both the compressor and the cooling blower at the same time?

Yes, I am preforming mods to make this 'cheap POS' compressor beat the hell out of nearly any 700 dollar new compressor you could ever buy. The air should be very dry, very cool, and the compressor should be real cool even after running constantly to keep up with a spray gun or the like.

Oh, I am also going to pull the air tanks off of the same press that I took the starter boxes out of. Each tank looks to be about 10, maybe 15 or 20 gallon. They both have lots of oil in them from the Showa oiler that kept things lubed up in that press. So... bet there is no rust to speak of inside of those tanks. I plan on adding them to the farther ends of the lines to increase capacity to the system as a whole, and install quick connects so that I can use them only when I need to. (yes, the boss said I could salvage what I want... gotta punch out to do so though. I'm fine with that. It's still a hell of a lot cheaper than buying these parts new or even used)

No, the oiler is still there at work, in case they need it for a press they happen to buy at a later date.

Wow, quite some rambling there.

P.S. Sorry, no pics of tools... got home from work, ate supper, then went to college. :bang: Forgot all about it. Going to do the same tomorrow. Work, eat, school. <--- Man, I hate that word... :msp_thumbdn:

I'm honestly a little confused too, though I think I can help a little bit. It would be really handy to see a pic of the electrical setup you're working with, especially what you're calling a reversing box; I work with 3-phase mag starters at the mill quite a bit, but they can be used for single-phase applications wired like you describe too. It does sound like you're talking about a mag starter; mags are much like a relay in that they allow you to use a much smaller current to control a larger one. I can't help much with wiring it up without seeing it or a data sheet for it; some contactors just borrow a bit of juice from one of the hot wires to power the holding circuit, others use an internal rectifier to create a DC current, others still need a separate line with a specific control voltage to do that job. If yours uses power from one of the hot wires, then it will matter which terminal is connected to ground or the mag won't pull the contacts together.

As to whether or not you can add any other components to it besides the compressor motor, that will depend on the starting inrush current draw of said motor (not necessarily the HP rating, though that matters too). One problem I can possibly see though, is that to wire a 120V load into a 240V feed, you're only going to be connecting it to one hot leg and then to ground/neutral. This is probably not going to be a problem for the circuit breaker (assuming the total load doesn't go above its rating), however it will create an uneven load on the mag. If the mag is equipped with its own heater overloads, it may cause that one leg to overload and trip out even though you're not approaching the load limit of the feed breaker. Overloads are usually swappable though, so you could in a pinch install a higher-rated one into just that leg if so, though I'd hesitate to recommend that. It sounds like you do have heater overloads if you have a reset switch in the box.

Most components like this are generally designed to work just fine with anywhere from ~90-110% of rated line voltage, so don't worry at all about the difference from 230v to 240v. Frankly 230v hardly exists anyway, it's just listed as an average because most lines are either 220v (Europe etc.) or 240V (North America).

Hope that helps a little bit! Throw a couple pics and some more info at me and I'll see what more I can do for you. I'm no electrician, but I end up working with the basics a fair amount at the mill just out of necessity when there isn't one around.

 

[WesternSaw]

Man o Man

I gave both you fellas above likes on your posts,the reason is you must have some good knowledge of electricity.Frankly,reading your posts was like trying to read a foreign language.Hopefully my son will complete is electrical all the way to journeyman and a red seal ,then I'll pick his brain.
Lawrence

 

[promac850]

lol, I am good at making people go crosseyed...

Okay, I will get some pics up.

But first I gotta tell you guys that I did not get to pull the air tanks today. Maybe tomorrow. However, I did get a free 35 pound bucket of vanilla icing... :msp_w00t:

 

[Snyper438]

lol, I am good at making people go crosseyed...

Okay, I will get some pics up.

But first I gotta tell you guys that I did not get to pull the air tanks today. Maybe tomorrow. However, I did get a free 35 pound bucket of vanilla icing... :msp_w00t:

First question: You gonna share that icing?

Now to the main subject. Is the motor starter 120 or 240 volt coil? (Probably 120 but gotta ask.) Are you using a regular compressor pressure switch to control the starter? As far the reversing side of the starter, you can probably forget it exsists, no need for it in this application. The reset won't really be needed unless you are using the thermal overloads on the starter, which you don't really need if the compressor motor is thermally protected on it's own.

Tell me if you have a 120 or 240 coil and what you are controlling it with and i should be able to get you the setup directions you need.


Ed

 

[fdoberman]

Might be I could work a swap on some icing for some flavored pop mix.

Hmmm if there was icing might be somebody around here might get herself in gear and bake something. Vanilla iced oatmeal cookies has a nice ring to it. I could eat a dozen or so.

 

[promac850]

First question: You gonna share that icing?

Now to the main subject. Is the motor starter 120 or 240 volt coil? (Probably 120 but gotta ask.) Are you using a regular compressor pressure switch to control the starter? As far the reversing side of the starter, you can probably forget it exsists, no need for it in this application. The reset won't really be needed unless you are using the thermal overloads on the starter, which you don't really need if the compressor motor is thermally protected on it's own.

Tell me if you have a 120 or 240 coil and what you are controlling it with and i should be able to get you the setup directions you need.


Ed

It's 240, with the auxiliary 120 wiring points on the middle of the box near the outside edges.

P.S. I can post pics tomorrow. Today wasn't possible because working from 7-4:30 today kicked my ass. Hard work... today, yesterday, the day before, and the day before that day... logged in close to 50 hours this week, working only four days out of five... (Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri)

Icing, maybe... I'm thinking lots and lots of sugar cookies with a layer of that delicious icing on it... :blob4:uttahere2::blob4:uttahere2:

 

[Snyper438]

It's 240, with the auxiliary 120 wiring points on the middle of the box near the outside edges.

P.S. I can post pics tomorrow. Today wasn't possible because working from 7-4:30 today kicked my ass. Hard work... today, yesterday, the day before, and the day before that day... logged in close to 50 hours this week, working only four days out of five... (Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri)

Icing, maybe... I'm thinking lots and lots of sugar cookies with a layer of that delicious icing on it... :blob4:uttahere2::blob4:uttahere2:

With a 240 coil, it's relatively simple using the exsisting circuit feeding the compressor. You can use the pressure switch on the compressor to feed the coil for proper control at tank ratings. whenever you can get the pic up, i'll try and work you up a diagram. Should be a pretty easy hookup. If you want the blower tied in to it, that will depend on the blower and compressor amperage ratings as to whether or not you'll need another circuit. I'd say you could possibly run both the same, just depends how much the compressor draws. Shoot me the specs if you can. A 20 amp circuit shouldn't be run regularly at over 16 to 17 amps due to heat buildup from current draw. If you have #10 wire, you can upgrade to a 30 amp breaker and install overloads or individual fuses on the two pieces to prevent damage. There are multiple ways of doing what you want so i won't start on it until i have the right info to be comfortable that i'm telling you right.

Ed

 

[promac850]

With a 240 coil, it's relatively simple using the exsisting circuit feeding the compressor. You can use the pressure switch on the compressor to feed the coil for proper control at tank ratings. whenever you can get the pic up, i'll try and work you up a diagram. Should be a pretty easy hookup. If you want the blower tied in to it, that will depend on the blower and compressor amperage ratings as to whether or not you'll need another circuit. I'd say you could possibly run both the same, just depends how much the compressor draws. Shoot me the specs if you can. A 20 amp circuit shouldn't be run regularly at over 16 to 17 amps due to heat buildup from current draw. If you have #10 wire, you can upgrade to a 30 amp breaker and install overloads or individual fuses on the two pieces to prevent damage. There are multiple ways of doing what you want so i won't start on it until i have the right info to be comfortable that i'm telling you right.

Ed

Here is the control box set up, and a close up on the main starter box.

Here are some of the tools I picked up at a garage sale previously mentioned...

Here is the DeVilbiss SGA 570 that I forgot to post a pic of eons ago...

 

[promac850]

Here is another tool I picked up at that garage sale... this one will definitely be worth its weight in gold, several times... a Reed Mfg. Co. pipe threader... I've always wanted a pipe threader... and there was a day I could've really used it...

I was replacing the crappy drain valve on the bottom of the tank on my Husky compressor, and the 1/4"x2" length of pipe was too long and interfered with the skid the compressor is mounted on. I ended up cutting some of the boards on the skid out of the way. No, the cuts do not compromise the integrity of the skid or compressor mounting points. Long story short, I now have a very nice drain valve set up, and it allows the water to be blown out with the flip of a lever on a ball valve.

Next mods for the compressor:

1. Rig up the motor control box
2. Clean up the ports in the pump's cylinder head (boy, won't my parents be thrilled that I'm taking a brand new compressor apart... even when it's something as minor as pulling a head)
3. Rig up a 14" automotive style air cleaner
4. Rig up the after cooler
5. Rig up the blower(s) to cool the stuff off

These mods should make this sucker last as long or longer than most (more like all, since the size and class price can't be matched by Quincy, etc., even after the cost of these mods being done to the Husky/CH compressor) and result in dryer air, and cooler temps. All for less money.

Can't get a whole lot better than that. Unless you were one lucky ass SOB and got a free Saylor-Beall 160 gallon vertical, complete with aftercoolers, and everything... man, I wish I was that lucky... I sure you all wish so too.

Ed, thanks for helping me out with this wiring stuff... hopefully you can find everything and we can figure out how to do it without blowing stuff up.

 

[Snyper438]

Here is the control box set up, and a close up on the main starter box.

Here are some of the tools I picked up at a garage sale previously mentioned...

Here is the DeVilbiss SGA 570 that I forgot to post a pic of eons ago...

Ok, by the pic, 120v coil. That means you'll need a neutral at the motor starter. Per your earlier post, you have 10/2 feeding your compressor which does not provide a neutral for the return side of the coil. If you want to use that starter, you'll need 10/3 from your panel to get the neutral connection (for it to done right). What are you trying gain over the existing pressure switch? Or is this a whole new set up?

 

[promac850]

Ok, by the pic, 120v coil. That means you'll need a neutral at the motor starter. Per your earlier post, you have 10/2 feeding your compressor which does not provide a neutral for the return side of the coil. If you want to use that starter, you'll need 10/3 from your panel to get the neutral connection (for it to done right). What are you trying gain over the existing pressure switch? Or is this a whole new set up?

Did you look closely at the close up pic, on the right hand side, in the middle of the label, it says "Polyphase rating" with "200/230 VAC 7.5 hp" and below that rating, it says "380, 460, 575 VAC 10 hp" and below that, it says "600 volts Max."

Just want to make sure that you saw that before we go any further... when I first looked at it, I thought it was a 120 volt box, but then noticed everything I just listed above.

I hope "polyphase" is not a fancy word for three phase...

The three things I am trying to gain is longer life of the pressure start up and shut off switch, since it really isn't made for routing that much current through itself. It technically should be set up as a relay to switch on a contact starter.

Some of the reviews that I read off site at various places stated that they have had to replace the pressure switch due to failure from excess current. (or so they say)

I noticed that all of the top end compressors have control boxes on them, with a starter switch and a pressure switch wired to it. There must be a good reason for that.

Other reason is so I can switch it on and off from the other side of the barn, without going to the breaker box.

Also, I have heard these contact starters can prolong the life of an electric motor. Just another thing I read.

Correct me if I missed something and/or if some of the stuff I read is really BS or not.

The switch/contact box has three big screws on top and on the bottom, and the two 120 volt screws that I assume you are referring to.

From the label, it's a 8736 class contact switch. I did find some diagrams, but still cannot really figure out which motor mine falls under. Is it a capacitor start, or this, or that? There were several ways to rig the thing up.

The diagram for this box is on page 75, and probably goes onto the next page... http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Machine Control/0140CT9201.pdf

 

[indiansprings]

I just bought one of the handiest tools I've ever owned...a set of Malco TSHD Turbo Sheers, actually made here in the USA, basically commercial grade sheet metal shears that can be set up on any quality drill, I've been putting a metal roof on the MIL's house and traditional tin or aviation snips were a pain in the azz, I was over at a cousin's house and saw a pair of these in use. You can cut metal up to either 16/18 ga like it is being cut with scissors, can cut extremely straight, stay on line, cut circles etc. They are fantastic, worth every penny, adjustable cutting head for different ga metal. Pricey at 90.00, but if you ever have to do much sheet metal or tin work they would be worth the money, running mine with a 1/2 DeWalt, a good quality 3/8 drill would work fine. You can use with either a corded or cordless. A very good quality tool.

 

[fdoberman]

For the last time, ONE (1) subject at a time.
The contactor you have in the picture is a very expensive piece of equipment, and about as necessary to your task as wheels on a chainsaw bar. You might as well be sending a 10 wheel log truck to pick up a popsicle stick, and I suggest you set this aside for some future project and find something more appropriate to the task.

If you have friends in the HVAC business you can generally get a compressor contactor for a few buucks from a machine being scrapped.

If you insist on using this,
1, post picture of motor nameplate showing dats to make life easier for people trying to help you.
2, You will need to either run new 3 wire from the breaker box to the compressor or hunt up a 240 to 120 volt controll transformer.
3, If the compressor is over 5hp, I strongly suggest you look into softstarting it, especially if the compressor is more than 50 feet from the electric service.
4, What is the amperage draw on your compressor motor on 240 volts according to the nameplate
5, does the compressor motor have internal overcurrent protection?


In answer to your sort of questions;
99.63267% of single phase compressors are capacitor start
Polyphase means either single phase or 3Ø
The voltages listed on the contactor indicate it was made for either US or Canadian use

 

[fdoberman]

I just bought one of the handiest tools I've ever owned...a set of Malco TSHD Turbo Sheers, actually made here in the USA, basically commercial grade sheet metal shears that can be set up on any quality drill, I've been putting a metal roof on the MIL's house and traditional tin or aviation snips were a pain in the azz, I was over at a cousin's house and saw a pair of these in use. You can cut metal up to either 16/18 ga like it is being cut with scissors, can cut extremely straight, stay on line, cut circles etc. They are fantastic, worth every penny, adjustable cutting head for different ga metal. Pricey at 90.00, but if you ever have to do much sheet metal or tin work they would be worth the money, running mine with a 1/2 DeWalt, a good quality 3/8 drill would work fine. You can use with either a corded or cordless. A very good quality tool.

The easiest way to cut metal roofing is with a few boards and some music wire.

Cut a slot in the base board to hold the wire
Make a top board that holds the roofing tight to the base board with slot through board
Lay wire in slot
Place roofing above slot to index cut
Place holding board on top of roofing
Have fat guy stand on top board to hold board & roofing down
Use broomstick to make handle for wire
Lift handle and cut roofing

 

[WesternSaw]

Good Stuff

Hey I hope you fellas are able to help Promac out with his project,sure no shortage of guy's wanting to help!

Also any chance of posting a picture of the metal sheer that you attach to a drill?
Thanks
Lawrence

 

[fdoberman]

Hey I hope you fellas are able to help Promac out with his project,sure no shortage of guy's wanting to help!

Also any chance of posting a picture of the metal sheer that you attach to a drill?
Thanks
Lawrence

If you want to power shear building metal buy a Kett and a set of replacement blades as well as a nibbler and get the job done.

 

[Philbert]

Also any chance of posting a picture of the metal sheer that you attach to a drill?

Malco Products is a good Minnesota company that I had the chance to visit once. They make a number of good quality and helpful specialty tools for HVAC, siding, and other trades. Mostly sold through supply houses that service those trades. Some, like the Turboshear are also sold though larger home centers.

Malco Products, Inc.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Malco Products is a good Minnesota company that I had the chance to visit once. They make a number of good quality and helpful specialty tools for HVAC, siding, and other trades. Mostly sold through supply houses that service those trades. Some, like the Turboshear are also sold though larger home centers.

Malco Products, Inc.

Philbert

Let's try that again . . .