Toppers

[BCMA]

It is not a crime to top trees, nor is it a crime to paint a '69 Camaro pink, nor a crime to listen to Celine Dion, just not right, thats all.
After all is explained and they still want it topped, it is still thier tree, is it so wrong to do as the customer wants?

That is a good question. Let's try to think our way through this. Let's suppose you are a professional tree care provider that has applied yourself in keeping abreast of the latest research, education, certifications, associations, etc. Your community, town, city, or village looks to you as the most knowledgeable, experienced, and trust-worthy tree guy. Great!

Mr. Jones who lives on Main Street wants to have his beautiful 80 year old sycamore tree topped because he thinks it’s too big, and his neighbor Mr. Smith just had his trees topped by Crack-head Tree Service, located here in town. Mr. Jones is a banker and knows nothing about proper tree care, but sees what his neighbor had done to his tree.

You try to explain to Mr. Jones that topping his beautiful 80 year old sycamore trees is not the proper thing to do, and that topping will create tremendous problems for the tree in years to come. But Mr. Jones replies that his neighbor Mr. Smith just had his trees topped by Crack-head Tree Service, and he has received a quote from them for the same topping service. You find out that Crack-head Tree Service has told him that if his tree is not topped, it is going to fall over and kill him and his wife…(have you ever heard that one!)

So, what do you do. Remember…you are the professional. You don’t do drugs. You are the arborist everyone looks up to to take care of the cities trees…professionally.

Let’s say you take the job and top, butcher, mutilate, destroy, and hack his beautiful 80 year old sycamore tree all for only $1,200.00 bucks! How do you feel? Are you proud of your job? Are you proud of your profession? Are you proud of your reputation?

You have just lowered yourself to the level of Crack-head Tree Service and the other hacks. You are no longer worthy of the reputation you once had. Now, the Mayor of your town and other citizens who drove down Main Street and watched you destroy that beautiful 80 year old sycamore tree, now have big questions as to your understand of proper tree care. You see the Mayor and other citizens just may be enlightened and understand that this is not good for trees, and you just put your stamp of approval on it. You lowered yourself to the same standard as Crack-head Tree Service.

I decided long ago, as soon as I knew better, to do right regardless of the outcome. My integrity and reputation is worth much more to me than $1,200.00 bucks. I want to be viewed as someone people can trust to give the right and proper information, and do the right things. I will not lower my standards as set forth by our industry, and please, let me encourage you and others to do the same.

 

[clearance]

You lost me in the first couple of sentences. I am a utility arborist, so, I am on the bottom rung of arborism (is that even a word).

I would advise against topping the tree, but if Mr. Jones wants it topped he will get the phone # of Crack-Head tree service from his neighbor Mr. Smith. Thats how it works out in the real world and..............Crack-Head tree service will be topping Mr. Jones tree.

My reputation means a lot to me, I don't think that many people would look that far down on me for topping trees. If I was lazy, or a thief, yes. But I work hard and produce. So I guess it comes down to-do you want the money or do you want Crack-Head tree service to have the money? 'Cause the tree is getting topped.

 

[BCMA]

It is not a crime to top trees, nor is it a crime to paint a '69 Camaro pink, nor a crime to listen to Celine Dion, just not right, thats all.
After all is explained and they still want it topped, it is still thier tree, is it so wrong to do as the customer wants?

BTW...In some cities, and in the city I operate in, it is a crime to top a tree that is within the cities jurisdiction, and is punishable with a fine or jail time. I believe that some cities in California may have an ordinance forbidding the topping of trees, even on private property.

 

[Nailsbeats]

As long as everyone has an opinion, I will throw my 2cents in here. I top trees that I have to, don't advise it and try to do anything I can to get around it. Always try to leave a good leader. If the self proclaimed elite want to look down on me, fine, you will find me workin with the rest of the blue collars.

 

[BCMA]

You lost me in the first couple of sentences. I am a utility arborist, so, I am on the bottom rung of arborism (is that even a word).

I would advise against topping the tree, but if Mr. Jones wants it topped he will get the phone # of Crack-Head tree service from his neighbor Mr. Smith. Thats how it works out in the real world and..............Crack-Head tree service will be topping Mr. Jones tree.

My reputation means a lot to me, I don't think that many people would look that far down on me for topping trees. If I was lazy, or a thief, yes. But I work hard and produce. So I guess it comes down to-do you want the money or do you want Crack-Head tree service to have the money? 'Cause the tree is getting topped.

I have a tremendous respect for utility arborists. I would not want your job as I do not like the thought of getting bit by electricity.

Giving the job, and the $1,200 bucks to Crack-head Tree Service does not bother me. We lose jobs to low-bidders and bottom feeders every day. Some of them may even be utility guys doing side work with no license, insurance, or workman’s compensation (sorry for the poke ).

What bothers me is all the future work I might lose, and the loss of my reputation for doing such a crappy job! The word might get out that I'm nothing more than a hack!

Not to mention…it’s just wrong!

 

[BCMA]

As long as everyone has an opinion, I will throw my 2cents in here. I top trees that I have to, don't advise it and try to do anything I can to get around it. Always try to leave a good leader. If the self proclaimed elite want to look down on me, fine, you will find me workin with the rest of the blue collars.

But guys, we don't have to do this sub-standard work to stay in business. Why can't we educate the public as to what is proper tree care. We have the standards written for us in the ANSI standards, and other publications. As long as we as an industry allow sloppy tree work, we will never progress to be viewed by the public as a professional industry!

We are viewed by some as sleaze-bags. Have saw…will travel…will work for beer mentality. Our industry deserves better than this. We will never dig ourselves out of this stigma until we start operating as professionals, and providing professional industry standard services.

 

[clearance]

Fine, each to his own. I am with Nailsbeats 100% on this. I see you have a bunch of qualifications, lots in fact. Just the title ISA arborist goes right to some peoples heads here, if they had all your credentials their heads would probably explode.

Calling people bottom feeders, lowballers and crack heads isn't really embracing your fellow treemen. The stigma you speak of, "sleazebags and work for beer....we will never dig ourselves out of this unless......"

I am not ashamed of a single freakin thing I have done in or to a tree. Not topping them or always climbing with spurs. Or going on major tree killing massacres. Any of it.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Do you really think people will come around?

You can look in any blue collar industry and see the same thing regardless of regulations. There's still shoddy carpentry, masonry, plumbing, etc. and those industries have been around much longer than ours. I'm sure they have plenty of regulations and "societies" that require everything to be done a certain way and people still price shop those categories as well. IMO, HO's have three options...

-Look for the absolute best...equipment, training, accreditation, etc. and pay for it.

-Look for good work from guys that know their job and just haven't spent the time or money getting little certificates that say so and pay a fair price.

-Look for the cheapest and get what you pay for.

 

[Rftreeman]

Are you starving?

Do you think that if you refused to do a substandard job that at least some of them would realize that because you refuse to destroy their trees that topping is the wrong thing to do?

Do you think that you're more likely to end up starving by developing a clientele of people who want a good job done, or a clientele of people who want the cheapest job done?

Do you think that people ask you to top their trees because of your reputation as a tree topper?

hell no I ain't starving and don't plan to be either...................obviously you missed my first post in this thread where I stated that I explain to them that it is wrong so here is is for you.

I tell them it's not the right thing to do but if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day. I use to ask them to call someone else and walk away from these jobs but I have to keep the business running...................I'll bet there are a whole bunch of people here who claim to never do it but I'll bet they have and will again....

You will never convince all the people that hat racking or topping is wrong no matter how hard you try there will always be the ones who want it done and if I explain that it's wrong what more can I do, I'm trying to be right but I'm not giving up money and I'm not known as a "topper" (very rarely do I top) I'm known as a guy who does tree and lawn work and does good work and gives the customer what they want at a good price so if that makes me a hack in your book then so be it but like I said I won't be starving at the end of the day.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Thats right Blakes, your gonna have it all top to bottom and in between in any industry, regulations never really change that. You can always find a fly by nighter at a cheaper price, for everything.

You know why you won't convince everybody?, because they've seen it done and seen how nice the tree comes back and they like it.

You can tell them all about how it stresses the tree, causes weak attached wood to grow, causes premature rot and decay, but they still love topping and re-topping. It makes them feel safer knowing you reduced all the weight and height and it will come right back greener than ever until you have to remove it, prolonging its life for now, as opposed to removing it immediately.

That's what I get from many homeowners. Maybe they'd listen more if I had a little certification badge on my shirt, but I don't so I don't know, but I could guess.

 

[Rftreeman]

I would rather pride myself in making decisions what is best for the client and community. People who want their trees topped are usually misinformed or confused about what they want. A little time and explaining of proper tree care usually is sufficient to persuade the client towards proper tree care.

Money should never be the determining factor for deciding what is the right thing to do. For how much money are you willing to sell your intergrity? If it is for money, are you willing to lie, steal, and cheat? Does the end justify the means? Would you celebrate Christmas with a stolen Christmas tree in order to save money?

I would rather go hungry than eat a stolen steak!

oh, so now I'm a thief ..................give me a break...........maybe you missed my first post also so here it is for you

I tell them it's not the right thing to do but if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day. I use to ask them to call someone else and walk away from these jobs but I have to keep the business running...................I'll bet there are a whole bunch of people here who claim to never do it but I'll bet they have and will again....

 

[Rftreeman]

BTW...In some cities, and in the city I operate in, it is a crime to top a tree that is within the cities jurisdiction, and is punishable with a fine or jail time. I believe that some cities in California may have an ordinance forbidding the topping of trees, even on private property.

this is nothing more than communism ..........did I spell that right?

 

[tree MDS]

Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?


I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.

I am well aware of some arborists looking down on utility guys, holding thier noses and dissin us while using the power we make possible from our work and others work. You are one, hypocrite, like the others.

Alright dude, to clear this up: all I meant was that that link was not a to a standard crown reduction- it was a link to crown reduction for powerline trimming, not residential work!! In that picture the powerlines were dictating the cuts, not the ansi standard for a crown reduction as it would apply to residential treework! Incedently this type of trimming is not done in my area really, I learned it in FL. It is an art that much I'll say. And sorry for the coments about powerline hacks. I'm sure yours is a thankless job. And yes trim that tree as dipicted. As for the arborist retard comment.. I'll let that one slide, an eye for an eye, lol.

 

[teamtree]

Well, after 10 years of talking to walls I am starting to get my point across that topping is bad. It does not mean much when the market desires to have their trees topped. You can educate all you want and yes some clients will listen, but at the end of the day topping is not going away. Call me a hack if I give in to the customer...he is paying the bill. I am to the point where I walk from the requests of topping as their is really no money in it for the most part. But if someone has 6 removals and insists on a topping of one tree...I will do it with no problem. I am a sell out. At the end of the day I am selling a service and I am for hire as well as my equipment. I am also for hire if you want my opinion on what to do and I will tell you the right thing to do.

I say it is the same thing as going out to eat. They sell the #### out of the food that is bad for us. They sell cigarettes, booze, otc medications. Those things are not bad for us?

Topping is bad? Really...If a person wants to destroy their tree it is their tree to destroy.

 

[tree MDS]

Serious question here: if you have an arborist licence and you say topped some trees comercially like for a bank or something, well your competitor sees it and turns you in, then what?? do you just get fined or can you lose your licence or what?? I forget.

 

[teamtree]

No license required in our area.

And in the nearest city in which a license is required...the homeowner can get a waiver to have their trees topped.

Here is a question for you...a local bank with 20 locations has topped their trees for years. In fact, years ago one of their guys calls me on a Sunday to ask if I wanted some work. He wanted me to chip the limbs from the trees they were trimming. I needed the work so I went to chip the limbs. Next thing you know he wants me to finish his work with my bucket truck. Hey, instead of him getting hurt I save him the trouble and he is happy to pay me to do the work.

A new maintenance guy comes in and they start doing it themselves again. Now they are calling me again to get their trees "topped" professionally...their words not mine.

I have the dilemna now of either talking them into a crown restoration job or removal. Well they don't want either. They want their ####ing trees topped.

I hate to say I would rather topped their trees than have some other guy do it...at the risk of looking like a hack.

I would just as soon stick to removals and let the trimming go so I do not have to educate my customers.

How many of you question your doctors prescriptions? How many arborists get told what to do despite their recommendations? I would say less than 5% of the tree services out their can say they never do something against their judgement because the customer told them to do so.

This industry is ####ed up. It is like a leaky dam...you get one tree service to change their way and there are 5 others out there filling the gap and topping trees.

I am tired of talking about it.

 

[tree MDS]

I think the idea is that over time the plan will come together and generally produce a better industry- through fines and more education. Old school hatrackers will eventually fade as people adopt better ways. Of course that wont work if everyone just caves in right off I suppose. Not that I really care.

 

[tree MDS]

I know its the Conecticut Tree Protective Association, I think. Its not areal worry sinse I dont top, but yeah we've got them. I dont think they really inforce much- of course no one really does topping around here, at least not in my imediate area. I'm lucky enough to be in a ritchie section. However it would be funny to see Susan St. James's trees get hatracked- or Micheal J. Fox, can you picture his reaction: "They're F#$$#@# hacked!!" all pissed off, lol.

 

[Jlarnard]

Gosh I have enjoyed this thread I created. I see both sides points. I actually had 2 down days this week alone. If this becomes common place, I still wont top trees. But in my initial post I wanted to know what others thought. Now I have a better understanding as to why people would top. Maybe I can just wave my hand instead of my finger at them as I drive by. As long as you make sure to educate the customer, I guess..... Heck no what am I saying... Stop topping residential trees for pete's sake. Justification doesn't fix the problem.

 

[lxt]

Lxt----todays standards will not be the same tommorrow, the standards 20yrs ago are still used because people saw this as industry standards and thought why change?

I have been in the tree care industry for over 20 years and have seen things change tremendously. I expect as much change in the next 20 years. This is why we need to be involved in our industry associations and stay abreast of the new science and technology.

Jlarnard----But basically that liability is an issue to companies that top trees.

This is true because indiscriminate topping is against ANSI A300 pruning standards. It is a form of malpractice. There are companies that have gotten sued for topping trees.

Just at least try to sell them on a lesser destructive means.

No, educate them on the correct means and then stand your ground!

Clearance----Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?

If you are an utility arborist, you have few options in line clearance procedures. The utilitiy companies have a moral and legal right to keep their lines clear of trees. I have people complain to me about utility clearance trimming and my reply is to them…do you like your electricity?? Would you like to see a little boy or girl get electrocuted?? Keep up the good work and keep those lines clear. When possible remove and replace with the right tree .

Ddhlakebound---- But I really don't think this thread is about utility topping.

This is correct. The issue is the topping of residential trees sold as proper tree care. This has to stop! The providers of these “hack” services are either: 1. Inexperienced or illegitimate tree services. Or, 2. Very immoral and unethical tree services that know better, but do not care. In both of these cases we as an industry need to stand up and confront these “hackers”. I called our county commissioners on one of these tree services and tried to get them banned from operating in the county. They were the traveling type. I call them “tree gypsy’s”. They could never operate a business staying in one place, but travel to remote and rural areas where there is no competition. They have already been run out of one state by the state attorney general, and told never to cross the state line.

I also have been in the tree care field for over 20yrs, second generation! my father for almost 40yrs...... truth is... shigo comes out makes some theoretical points and now lets adopt them as an industry standard for all lines of work.

when I worked LCTT the inspector was big on shigo... but I think shigo would of thought otherwise!! what im saying is trying to talk people out of topping their tree(s) that have been topped for the past 20yrs doesnt fly..tried it!

funny how if I mention a crown reduction no more than 1/3rd & pull the ends to laterals 1/3rd this is ok??? some people think this is topping!!! they dont know the language of our industry, ive had people tell me top my maple and make a ball out of it......so I crown reduce & pull ends all to laterals 1/3rd!! they think I topped their tree!!!

Honestly.... if I plant it then why cant I do as I want with it? next will be grass cutters talking about proper mowing techniques and how a sharp blade is better........& they`re probably right!! but I dont think there will be anyone making laws about it like in the tree care field.


LXT........