captainsteep
ArboristSite Member
should you top the spar tree or not, i have herd both sides of the story, when the top is still in the tree, and when it is cut off, what do you think and why!!!
Topping spar trees
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tomtrees58
Addicted to ArboristSite
are you logging in the hills tom trees
We usually use an intermidiate tree with a block and then a tail tree to anchor to. These are close together and meant to keep the skyline at a good working height. Out Koller yarder only uses a 5/8" skyline but still those 2 trees are pretty beat up when we are done, not to mention they are limbed up high. We usually take them down. On steeper sites we just anchor to a good tree or two, both at the stump.
I consider a spar tree as a completly different animal than above so maybe you could explain what you mean by the term. BTW I have neve used a spar tree.
I consider a spar tree as a completly different animal than above so maybe you could explain what you mean by the term. BTW I have neve used a spar tree.
lol you tell em clearance!
Humptulips
ArboristSite Guru
If you are actually talking about a spar tree, yes you have to take the top out. Any tree that there will be people working under has to be topped.
Tail trees and support trees are usually not considered to have a crew working under even though there might be people working around it for brief stints so most are not topped.
I've only worked around three what I would call spar trees in my career. Set chokers on one, hung rigging in another and actually rigged and logged another. Two were head trees and one a swing tree about a thousand feet off the road.
If you are talking about that machine you showed the pictures of on here earlier I have a few thoughts. If you have no chaser and the engineer is chasing his own turns and the yarder is back far enough so that if the top snaps out it can't hit the yarder you might get by with leaving the top in it.
Tail trees and support trees are usually not considered to have a crew working under even though there might be people working around it for brief stints so most are not topped.
I've only worked around three what I would call spar trees in my career. Set chokers on one, hung rigging in another and actually rigged and logged another. Two were head trees and one a swing tree about a thousand feet off the road.
If you are talking about that machine you showed the pictures of on here earlier I have a few thoughts. If you have no chaser and the engineer is chasing his own turns and the yarder is back far enough so that if the top snaps out it can't hit the yarder you might get by with leaving the top in it.
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RPM
ArboristSite Operative
We call them a tail spar or back spar - anytime the rigging is up a tree (6 - 50') and not stump rigged. Only purpose is to get lift at the back end to improve your deflection. I've seen a back spar tree rigged as high as 80' for a skyline unit. These trees are supposed to be topped (WCB) and guyed back just like the tower.
The other type of back spar we use alot when we can is a mobile backspar - either a cat or excavator - gives another 12-15' lift at the back and you don't have to change roads / rig stumps etc. Works best with a grapple yarder.
And have used the a swing tree a couple of times as Humptulips mentioned above as well .. good evening there!
The theory behind topping the tail trees and intermediate support trees is this. These trees get a lot of stress on them and wiggle around a lot. Taking that weight off supposedly keeps them from wiggling more and decreases the chance that it'll break off or pull out. Since the tree is usually a second growth tree, it needs all the help it can get. When they are rigged closer to the ground, there's less leverage and they usually aren't topped.
We have a lot of loose, pumice soil here, which isn't good for holding tree roots. The better hooktenders use twisters on every setting, which are attached to the stumps used for guying the tail tree or tail hold. Think of guying the guyline stump/tree. They take a piece of haywire, wrap it around what they want to add support to, and then wrap it around the new supporter, it is doubled, a big stick put in between the lines and then twisted tight. Sometimes the hooktender puts twisters on the twisters. I haven't seen that outfit ever pull a tail tree when working here.
Undoing the twisters is tricky.
We have a lot of loose, pumice soil here, which isn't good for holding tree roots. The better hooktenders use twisters on every setting, which are attached to the stumps used for guying the tail tree or tail hold. Think of guying the guyline stump/tree. They take a piece of haywire, wrap it around what they want to add support to, and then wrap it around the new supporter, it is doubled, a big stick put in between the lines and then twisted tight. Sometimes the hooktender puts twisters on the twisters. I haven't seen that outfit ever pull a tail tree when working here.
Undoing the twisters is tricky.
hammerlogging
Addicted to ArboristSite
Have too... probably not, because does your OSHA guy or anyone know one thing about what you are doing? Probably not. But, when in doubt, topped spars keep that top from swinging under load so that reduces the likelihood of it pulling over. Guyline anchors, likewise, better off stumps.
Much more appealing is that that sucker must be getting up and running again! Alright!
Much more appealing is that that sucker must be getting up and running again! Alright!
Guylines are a different matter. If a tree used for guying the yarder is close enough or tall enough to hit the landing if pulled over, it HAS to be cut. I was moseying up to the landing when a tree pulled over and landed on the yarder. It was a tree that I'd put up an argument (I don't usually do this) about even marking for them to use. It was a hemlock growing out of a large hump in the ground. Then they didn't even cut it. The chaser got in my face and started yelling that I didn't mark it for them to cut. I pointed out the blue paint on the tree, and he shut up.
They'd pulled over two guyline trees previously.
This is the closest I've ever come to calling the state safety people to come out. But if I did, everyone would get inspected, there were 2 other outfits working in that area.
They'd pulled over two guyline trees previously.
This is the closest I've ever come to calling the state safety people to come out. But if I did, everyone would get inspected, there were 2 other outfits working in that area.
captainsteep
ArboristSite Member
great replies everyone. I got all the answers i needed and some. the reason i asked was just what slowp said black wet ground, and keep pulling spar tree over will try slowps haywire answer. thanks
Here is what is commonly called a spar tree at least in Washington and SE Ak. A tail tree will have a lot less lines in it and will be in the back end away from the landing. But as RPM mentioned maybe some places will call then tail spars. Lots of different terminoligy in logging.
Humptulips
ArboristSite Guru
If you are pulling trees over guylines are your answer. Twisters work great on stumps not so well to guy standing trees.
Use a little caution putting up a twister also. If that twister sticks gets away from you it can clean your clock.
Hahaha thats for sure. I helped unwrap one poor soul from an out of control twister. The stick got hung in his sweatshirt.
Kiwilogger
ArboristSite Operative
We always top our tailspar trees, rare as it is that we ever use one. They are a pain in the ass to rig and set up.
In the pine here in NZ, our trees are probably only around 90ft tall, and we rig our spars with the block (that the skyline goes through) at about 20 ft off the ground. If that doesn't give us the lift, then the forest owner can bloody well put another skid in. :chainsawguy:
I operate the yarder here, a TMY 70 with a 1 1/8 Sky. The tail spar is guyed back with 3 or 4 guys depending on how far out we are going to bridle (have to make sure we are bridling in lead), but the guys on the spar are only 3/4 non swaged.
In the pine here in NZ, our trees are probably only around 90ft tall, and we rig our spars with the block (that the skyline goes through) at about 20 ft off the ground. If that doesn't give us the lift, then the forest owner can bloody well put another skid in. :chainsawguy:
I operate the yarder here, a TMY 70 with a 1 1/8 Sky. The tail spar is guyed back with 3 or 4 guys depending on how far out we are going to bridle (have to make sure we are bridling in lead), but the guys on the spar are only 3/4 non swaged.
Kiwilogger
ArboristSite Operative
Oh, and we would never ever guy to a standing tree.
We'd get our butts whipped. :hmm3grin2orange:
We'd get our butts whipped. :hmm3grin2orange:
Humptulips
ArboristSite Guru
That sounds like overkill to me. On larger yarders then that I've used 3/4 but rarely more then 2 guylines and I thought that was more then needed at the time. I would think 9/16 would do for that size machine and then only two unless an extreme amount of push or side pressure. You'd probably cut the tree off before you broke a guyline unless you're using tree plates.
I'd guess for tail trees I've seldom gone much over 60 feet with the average being around 40 and at that height with 3 or 4 3/4 guylines long enough to reach and tighten on a stump you would have your work cut out for you.
Kiwilogger
ArboristSite Operative
If we use a tailspar, then we are definitely going to be bridling a lot of wood off the one spar. We are using northbend. Mostly it's 3 guys rather than 4. I put up to 30 tonnes of pressure on my skyline (via the tension meter), and to rig one extra guyline for the security is bugger all work, compared to the effort involved in recovering a smashed spar setup.
oregoncutter
ArboristSite Operative
Spar tree?
Are we talking about spar trees, intermediate supports, lift trees, or trees as tailholds? As for guylines on any of the above when I was hooking on a swing yarder we used heavy duty blue rope to guyline any of the above. we also used a capstan winch or comealong to tension guylines for the above, or twisted them .Depending on the situation tailhold trees,lift trees, and guyline trees related to the above were rarely topped. Pick good trees, set you're guylines low, and if in doubt top em, watch Your'e turn size, and be smart about not puting too much side pull on the riggin, and You should'nt be pulling over trees. We allways topped spar, and intermediate support trees
Are we talking about spar trees, intermediate supports, lift trees, or trees as tailholds? As for guylines on any of the above when I was hooking on a swing yarder we used heavy duty blue rope to guyline any of the above. we also used a capstan winch or comealong to tension guylines for the above, or twisted them .Depending on the situation tailhold trees,lift trees, and guyline trees related to the above were rarely topped. Pick good trees, set you're guylines low, and if in doubt top em, watch Your'e turn size, and be smart about not puting too much side pull on the riggin, and You should'nt be pulling over trees. We allways topped spar, and intermediate support trees
oregoncutter
ArboristSite Operative
For the above related guylines if memory serves me right 50 degrees is optimum.
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