Tree business without a climber?

[windthrown]

I have a tree service, but I do not climb much any more. Bad back. I sub out the big climbing to some local tree butchers, and I do all the small climbing, groundie stuff and chipping. They are more than happy to get the work these days. They also sub me out for chipping. Works both ways.

I was on a chipping job earlier in the week and there were 2 guys clearing an acre or so of "backyard" trees. They were laid off iron workers. They were happy to be working and making some side money. Owner hired them but they had no chipper. So he hired me with my chipper. It takes a lot of creativity to survive in this economic down turn, and compete with the wave of cheap Mexicans here.

 

[Raymond]

Not to thread jack but the treeman Dan and Raymond both never commented on the pictures of the wide spread locust. As far as this thread goes, I've worked with lawn jockeys and they all think climbing and trimming trees is so easy. Well when your as great as me it is. You never know till you try but beware YOU COULD DIE!! or get seriously :censored:UP and besides I am not "above average climber" ask anyone around these parts that seen me climb, I'm bloody ridiculous!! with a side Crazy!

Wide spread locust Ricky? I don't recall, sorry.

 

[Rickytree]

Wide spread locust Ricky? I don't recall, sorry.

Hey no need to apologize! It's all good Brother from a different mother!

 

[ropensaddle]

Ok here it is fellow tree dudes and gals, what we have here is, "failure to communicate"
I suggest all my brothers that we hire some of our buddies to be land & lawn jockeys part time and our ground dudes the rest of the time. Hear me out, I know no self respecting tree man wants to do jockey work but at least then we could put a handle on the rif raff stealing our work usually without proper ins & license.

 

[tree md]

I think I'm gonna head to the pawn shop tomorrow, pick up a couple of second hand lawn mowers, hire a couple of lawn care professionals and start selling lawn service and landscaping...

Not knocking the OP for asking the question. He seems like a cool dude.

But it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1iR2Wi3u5o

 

[ropensaddle]

I think I'm gonna head to the pawn shop tomorrow, pick up a couple of second hand lawn mowers, hire a couple of lawn care professionals and start selling lawn service and landscaping...

Not knocking the OP for asking the question. He seems like a cool dude.

But it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll!

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Yup bout time for a cost cutter ad to scare off the rif raff lol!

 

[Raymond]

I think I'm gonna head to the pawn shop tomorrow, pick up a couple of second hand lawn mowers, hire a couple of lawn care professionals and start selling lawn service and landscaping...

Not knocking the OP for asking the question. He seems like a cool dude.

But it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eiBMltWg2RQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eiBMltWg2RQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Get it brotha..

 

[xander9727]

Since it's impossible to be completely partial.........one has to decide what they are doing. If the Arboricultural industry gets slow does it make sense that I start doing plastic surgery on the side? This may seem like a ridiculous comparison but hear me out. To be a professional in this industry you need several distinct attributes.
1. A good work ethic. If you have a good work ethic why do you need side work? Couldn't you do more of what you currently do to make more money? This would avoid having to learn or master a new skill set. With a good work ethic and professional experience you could get a similar job that pays more from someone in your field that has a higher wage and less work ethic. Lets pretend you have a good work ethic and you just want a challenge (i.e. change).
2. Knowledge in what your doing. This isn't a general knowledge (I can mix two cycle fuel) but an in depth knowledge of tree species and physiology, physics, climbing and biology/chemistry related to tree work. Remember were striving to be professionals, just knowing is "some kind of a Maple" doesn't cut it.
3. Equipment. This isn't the bare minimum equipment to make a mess with, but the necessary equipment to perform tree work. This is Ropes (more than 2), climbing gear, saws (more than 2, we're pro's remember), a chipper, trucks (more than one), rakes, blowers, etc. This is a lot of money to spend for a weekend job.
4. Business basics. This includes insurance, advertising, accounting, estimate forms, uniforms, etc. The real aspects of a business not just the skeleton. We are trying to be professionals, still.
5. A tolerance for risk. You have to pay the bills in the summer and the winter. You need to spend money on advertising for jobs you don't have yet. You need to buy and repair equipment that you haven't paid for yet.
I know a lot of people would say this isn't necessary.........well I guess I can say that a medical degree and a hospital isn't necessary to be a doctor. You would say that puts lives at risk. I would relate that to doing tree work without the proper knowledge and/or equipment. You may say that one isn't as serious as the other.........I would say your not a professional.
I believe my job is as important, skilled, necessary and difficult as any other job and more than most. Most jobs don't require people to make decisions that determine the life or death of living organisms that are at times hundreds of years old. Most jobs don't place the workers lives in harms way on a daily basis if poor decisions are made. Most jobs don't require years of experience to be considered competent among their peers. Most jobs don't have a huge glut of uneducated people saying they can do them.
NEWS FLASH:

THIS AIN'T MOST JOBS!

The very idea that you can watch a couple of episodes of Axmen, go an buy a chainsaw and perform the same work I do is ridiculous. The neighbors paid the kid next door to paint their shed......that doesn't make him Picasso.
If you really sit down and figure out what it takes to be successful in this business most will find they need to concentrate on what they currently do. Most (90%) of guys who do work on the side are low ballers. They don't realize that the $2500 job they are doing really should pay $6000. What do you do if you get hurt on a side job? You can't collect workers comp and you can't go to work. I'm all for guys working in this industry just take it serious and do it full time. It's the part timers mistakes that drive up everyone's insurance rates.

If you not willing to put forth the effort and bear the risk of what it takes to be a professional, then I don't want you to associate yourself with those that do. You can't ask for respect.......you need to earn it. In this industry that is done through accomplishment. If you don't have the prerequisite accomplishment then don't get mad if you aren't respected on this forum.

Lawnsite was created for a reason.

Tod

 

[kipper]

Xander,

I can only think that you were communicating directly to me. I am fully aware of Lawnsite and know that there are some great resources for the lawncare industry over there. Just as here they do not appreciate someone trying to get in to "their" business. I am cool with that but I am also no beginner. I will address all of your issue items one by one so the message is very clear.

1. The challenge and the enjoyment of side work is why I do it. It also provides side money for the people that help me.

2. Knowledge. I learn something new everyday as I am sure you do the same. Do I know it all? Hell no and I dont pretend to. But I am not scared to ask or try.

3. Buckingham spikes, weaver saddle and samson ropes, stihl MS250, 290, 460 and echo 330 trim saw, PTO chipper for my tractor because it works better than the junk you can find used and I like it, two 3/4 ton trucks, one 1 ton flatbed with stake sides and two 1/2 ton trucks, assortment of rakes, wedge's axe's and blowers.

4. Insurance. 2 million liability and workmans comp for all associates. No advertising, word of mouth works just fine. Accounting, quickbooks man it sure is easy at the end of the quarter. Estimate forms, emailed via blackberry on the site or printed and delivered if they prefer.

5.I know what it takes to do the jobs we do, it's part of the way we determine how much to charge. I am sure you the professional do the same thing.

In closing, maybe you are a little confused I never asked for respect from anyone. I know respect is earned I have certainly earned a lot of it. Oh by the way all of the equipment is paid for.

To the folks that would like to try their hand at lawncare come on down. One thing I like to see is someone starting out in an industry that has been very good to me and taught me soo much. And if you can't hack it then someone will come in behind you and do it dont worry.

My comments about the stoned, hungover tree workers are from experience of homeowners contacting local tree services in my area and do not represent anyone on this site (at least not that I know of) it is not a general comment about tree workers.

Good luck in your business, with the outlook you have showed you may need it.

 

[ropensaddle]

Xander,

I can only think that you were communicating directly to me. I am fully aware of Lawnsite and know that there are some great resources for the lawncare industry over there. Just as here they do not appreciate someone trying to get in to "their" business. I am cool with that but I am also no beginner. I will address all of your issue items one by one so the message is very clear.

1. The challenge and the enjoyment of side work is why I do it. It also provides side money for the people that help me.

2. Knowledge. I learn something new everyday as I am sure you do the same. Do I know it all? Hell no and I dont pretend to. But I am not scared to ask or try.

3. Buckingham spikes, weaver saddle and samson ropes, stihl MS250, 290, 460 and echo 330 trim saw, PTO chipper for my tractor because it works better than the junk you can find used and I like it, two 3/4 ton trucks, one 1 ton flatbed with stake sides and two 1/2 ton trucks, assortment of rakes, wedge's axe's and blowers.

4. Insurance. 2 million liability and workmans comp for all associates. No advertising, word of mouth works just fine. Accounting, quickbooks man it sure is easy at the end of the quarter. Estimate forms, emailed via blackberry on the site or printed and delivered if they prefer.

5.I know what it takes to do the jobs we do, it's part of the way we determine how much to charge. I am sure you the professional do the same thing.

In closing, maybe you are a little confused I never asked for respect from anyone. I know respect is earned I have certainly earned a lot of it. Oh by the way all of the equipment is paid for.

To the folks that would like to try their hand at lawncare come on down. One thing I like to see is someone starting out in an industry that has been very good to me and taught me soo much. And if you can't hack it then someone will come in behind you and do it dont worry.

My comments about the stoned, hungover tree workers are from experience of homeowners contacting local tree services in my area and do not represent anyone on this site (at least not that I know of) it is not a general comment about tree workers.

Good luck in your business, with the outlook you have showed you may need it.

Ok correct me here if I am wrong but you run landscape insurance right?

 

[kipper]

Landscape, Lawn Care, Tree removal and Trimming as well as commercial vehicle insurance. Doesn't everyone???

 

[Rickytree]

Kipper You might be a lawn mower jockey but I still have respect for you more than the lazy scumbags that work for the government and muncipalities. These guys not only waste time and money but tonnes of fuel too. All they do is drive around in their top notch brand new vehicles. Hey, if your going to do :censored:all then go shut the truck off and do :censored:all!

 

[treemandan]

Not to thread jack but the treeman Dan and Raymond both never commented on the pictures of the wide spread locust. As far as this thread goes, I've worked with lawn jockeys and they all think climbing and trimming trees is so easy. Well when your as great as me it is. You never know till you try but beware YOU COULD DIE!! or get seriously :censored:UP and besides I am not "above average climber" ask anyone around these parts that seen me climb, I'm bloody ridiculous!! with a side Crazy!

Geez, really? I am sorry Ricky baby, its me ,The Dan, talking right now, I am going to head over there right now.

 

[xander9727]

Is trimming sort of like pruning.......only with a lawnmower.
:-0

 

[xander9727]

Geez, really? I am sorry Ricky baby, its me ,The Dan, talking right now, I am going to head over there right now.

Dan,
You can't go there! It's Canada......they don't allow guns..

 

[kipper]

Policy says trimming think what you want of it.

 

[xander9727]

That says volumes about the guy who wrote it.........and paid for it....

 

[kipper]

yeah, we call it trimming, you call it pruning and we both make money... Go figure... On top of it we sell firewood in the winter as well. I guess I should not do that either? Certainly can not be in three different business !!!

 

[ropensaddle]

Landscape, Lawn Care, Tree removal and Trimming as well as commercial vehicle insurance. Doesn't everyone???

You have to be very careful insurance for tree work is different than landscaping and pruning
insurance many carry its higher but most important it covers you. It is getting to where you have to be a lawyer to friggin understand insurance declarations. Many landscapers here do it without insurance or they carry the landscape,prunning & dusting but heck illegals here are climbing barefoot and using machetes to cut them down I have a video of it been trying to figure out how to get it posted!

 

[xander9727]

In all seriousness I would make sure you are covered for heights over 25'. Your underwriter may think trimming is ornamentals and pruning is mature trees. Either way I would read the fine print to make sure you are well covered. I usually have these things reviewed because I am not an insurance expert and I don't have the time to become one.

You can do as many businesses as you want. If you've read Good to Great by Jim Collins you know that it is not what you can be good at that matters. What can you be the best at in the world (or at least your local area). If you concentrated 100% of your resources on landscaping, tree work, lawn care, etc., you would most likely be more profitable. There is a point where repetition produces efficiency. The more you do something the more efficient you become at it. This doesn't mean you can't make money in trees, building decks, cleaning windows, etc but it does mean most companies are most profitable when they are very vertically integrated.

Lawn care/landscaping takes different equipment and skills than tree work. There are some parallels but I'm sure I can clear an acre of trees more efficiently than you can. I'll bet you can take care of an acre of landscape/turf more efficiently than I can. It comes down to equipment and experience. I'll make more money on most tree jobs than a landscape company and vice versa for landscape jobs.