Tree Damage From Crop Spraying

[TNTreeHugger]

Just got back from a short road trip... add the convenience center (dump), cemetery, and community center to the list of damaged properties.
Headed back out to the neighborhood on south side of the field.

 

[Raintree]

She has no independent proof that the samples taken and sent to the lab are in fact from the trees in question.
You need a qualified neutral third party to collect the samples and send them to a certified lab.

 

[lone wolf]

She has no independent proof that the samples taken and sent to the lab are in fact from the trees in question.
You need a qualified neutral third party to collect the samples and send them to a certified lab.

She has pictures that are dated to corroborate the evidence. Too bad she didn't video the guy spraying.

 

[pdqdl]

Like I said. It's not a chain of custody question, but witness credibility.
The liable party isn't going to argue about any potential fraud with the samples. They're going to argue about actual damages and the source of the observed contamination, not the "whether" of the contamination.

At least in theory, every litigant must be prepared to go in front of a judge. Not many lawyers would be willing to stake the liability of a case on whether the injured party with provably dead plants, Dept of Ag records showing a probable cause of the injury, photos of a matching injury to the predictable chemical's effects, and.... Oh yes! You sent in fake samples to the lab in order to get a false positive!

That would be a losing argument. And making such a claim would only increase the punitive value of any civil court decision.

 

[Raintree]

As a licensed and certified arborist I wasn't able to harvest samples of injury for my client, to be submitted for analysis. We had to get the pathologist from the extension service to gather the evidence. So I don't understand how the plaintiff is able to do so.

 

[lone wolf]

As a licensed and certified arborist I wasn't able to harvest samples of injury for my client, to be submitted for analysis. We had to get the pathologist from the extension service to gather the evidence. So I don't understand how the plaintiff is able to do so.

All you have to do is convince a jury the damage came from spraying and they spayed then the trees died. Build a case!

 

[ATpro]

Just got back from a short road trip... add the convenience center (dump), cemetery, and community center to the list of damaged properties.

Sounds like a class action lawsuit coming!

 

[arathol]

As a licensed and certified arborist I wasn't able to harvest samples of injury for my client, to be submitted for analysis. We had to get the pathologist from the extension service to gather the evidence. So I don't understand how the plaintiff is able to do so.

Probably because trained experts and homeowners have two different standards to meet......and its better to preserve stuff now while you can than to wish you had done so later....

Something else to consider about testing -
So far all recommendations have been to send samples to agricultural labs for testing, labs that may or may not be sympathetic to and biased towards the farmers, where tests for specific toxins are done. Its also been mentioned that the samples might be degraded past the testing threshold for conventional testing methods used at those labs. Why not go in another direction and find a university or some other independent lab outside the agricultural world that might have a better testing process which could possibly find toxins that the ag labs can't. Seems to me that a lab with an XF analyzer would find most any trace of any chemical residue left behind, even its just chemicals that wouldn't normally be present that may remain after the toxin has degraded, including whats left of any surfactants or other additives. One XF test would reveal everything present in the sample, you wouldn't need multiple tests for specific chemicals.

 

[arathol]

I think chain of custody doesn't come into play too often until it is a criminal charge and the police are producing the evidence to put someone in jail.

This.......the rules in civil court are far less restrictive than in criminal court...

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Probably because trained experts and homeowners have two different standards to meet......and its better to preserve stuff now while you can than to wish you had done so later....

Something else to consider about testing -
So far all recommendations have been to send samples to agricultural labs for testing, labs that may or may not be sympathetic to and biased towards the farmers, where tests for specific toxins are done. Its also been mentioned that the samples might be degraded past the testing threshold for conventional testing methods used at those labs. Why not go in another direction and find a university or some other independent lab outside the agricultural world that might have a better testing process which could possibly find toxins that the ag labs can't. Seems to me that a lab with an XF analyzer would find most any trace of any chemical residue left behind, even its just chemicals that wouldn't normally be present that may remain after the toxin has degraded, including whats left of any surfactants or other additives. One XF test would reveal everything present in the sample, you wouldn't need multiple tests for specific chemicals.

Got any names?

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Whew. What a busy and productive morning.
Drove to that neighborhood to survey damage, talked to a resident who also had minor damage to his oakleaf hydrangea in the front yard. But I didn't see any other evidence of herbicide damage there.
While I was there, ran into the farmer responsible for spraying that farther field. He followed me and looked at all the damage I found north of his field.
He went home and checked the date he sprayed - 04/29 started early in the morning across the road from that field then did the field on the same side of the road as my yard, about 1/4 mile south of me. Said he used 2-4-D and Sterling Blue (dicamba... and another Winfield product)
He speculated that some of the damage could be from when he sprayed, and since it was several weeks after the first spraying event before I noticed the extent of the damage in my yard, it very well could be. When I said I doubted it was his spraying, he said he wouldn't be too sure it wasn't... and mentioned how under the right conditions the stuff can be picked up, carried quite a distance, then dropped.
He also told me once he saw it happen while he was spraying and the cloud crossed into a neighbors nursery field and caused substantial damage to an area.
Very nice man, known him as long as I've lived here. He's coming by tomorrow to talk to the inspector since he's noticed extensive tree damage to the fence rows on other properties he's sprayed.

On my way to that neighborhood, the out of town cousin who owns the field next to mine just happened to out mowing another property 1/4 mile south of me on the opposite side of the road. He wasn't the least bit interested. And the only damage I saw was the ancient grapevine behind the farmhouse. He said that was :normal" new growth. I don't think so....


Met up with my other cousin and the farmer at my house to survey damage. Both concurred, pretty bad damage. Cousin wants me to send the inspector to his place tomorrow when he's finished with me.
Spoke to the woman whose nursery was damaged years ago. She said see what the inspector says then attempt to get paid for damages. Hard to do when only one redbud actually appears to be dead - but, as my cousin said, at least the incident will have been documented and if things should begin to drop dead in the next few years, we can proceed from there.
A local nurseryman is coming by this afternoon to look at the damage and hopefully offer suggestions to reduce the impact.

It all seems to be resting on what the inspector says tomorrow.

 

[arathol]

Got any names?

Don't know anything about your area, but where I live UCONN has a lot of labs where testing might be done, including a real good AG lab. X-ray Fluorescence testing is more likely to be found at a materials testing lab. Some more up-to-date places have handheld units that can be taken right into the field for on site inspection too if needed.

 

[arathol]

Whew. What a busy and productive morning.
Drove to that neighborhood to survey damage, talked to a resident who also had minor damage to his oakleaf hydrangea in the front yard. But I didn't see any other evidence of herbicide damage there.
While I was there, ran into the farmer responsible for spraying that farther field. He followed me and looked at all the damage I found north of his field.
He went home and checked the date he sprayed - 04/29 started early in the morning across the road from that field then did the field on the same side of the road as my yard, about 1/4 mile south of me. Said he used 2-4-D and Sterling Blue (dicamba... and another Winfield product)
He speculated that some of the damage could be from when he sprayed, and since it was several weeks after the first spraying event before I noticed the extent of the damage in my yard, it very well could be. When I said I doubted it was his spraying, he said he wouldn't be too sure it wasn't... and mentioned how under the right conditions the stuff can be picked up, carried quite a distance, then dropped.
He also told me once he saw it happen while he was spraying and the cloud crossed into a neighbors nursery field and caused substantial damage to an area.
Very nice man, known him as long as I've lived here. He's coming by tomorrow to talk to the inspector since he's noticed extensive tree damage to the fence rows on other properties he's sprayed.

Hmmmm.......ever see Ghost Busters?
When somebody asks if you are a god, you say YES.........
Don't argue with the farmer. If he says he did it, don't disagree with him. Saying you don't think the spraying did it can really count against you in any litigation for damages down the road.....
Get complete official weather records for the days in question, including hourly temps, wind speed and wind direction.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Question about an huge Eastern White pine near the cemetery..
I just googled to learn that the small cones are the male cones that release the pollen



This is what I found - the little cones are dried up and fall off when you touch them, similar to what's going on with my buckeye.
Is it normal for them to do that, or should they be firmly secured to the tree stem?

 

[TNTreeHugger]

https://turf.purdue.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ID_184_W.pdf

 

[TNTreeHugger]

04/29 - 82F MAX 17mph winds Avg. 7.6

Local weather conditions, including historical data
https://www.localconditions.com/local-weather.php

 

[ATH]

....
Something else to consider about testing -
So far all recommendations have been to send samples to agricultural labs for testing, labs that may or may not be sympathetic to and biased towards the farmers, .. ...

That's not how labs work. They report what the find. If they manipulated results, their creditably goes to 0 immediately. Many universities work HEAVILY with the agricultural sector and may well have been contracted by chemical companies to do research on the products being used. Does that same assumption that they are too biased to give honest results apply to them too? (I don't think that is the case...but given they are tied to the ag industry, if you doubt the results from private labs why not universities?)

Columbia Labs is not an "agriculture" lab, FWIW. They are one of a few labs able to test for pesticide residue and metabolites.

 

[Jed1124]

I have mixed opinions about your shiny leaf. Yes, a surfactant might leave a shiny stain, but not unless it was a very direct hit with the herbicide. If it was that straight a hit to leave a shiny stain, it would surely have killed hell out of that leaf, due to the high concentration of herbicide that it came in contact with. That oak leaf only has a bit of curl, so I think it is unlikely to be surfactant residue.

Keep in mind, too, that surfactants are not likely to be applied at more than one gallon per 100 gallons of water, and your farmer was probably only putting down 10 to 15 gallons per acre. Imagine spreading one gallon of surfactant over 10 acres, and then tell me if you think you could spread it that thin and leave a shiny stain?

Maybe... but probably not.

I'm going to guess you don't have much experience with pesticide surfactants. What's in a surfactant that makes 'em dry shiny, anyway?

Kindly tell me what brand you have used that remains shiny when dry. Particularly when applied at 0.00001224 teaspoons per square inch to an oak leaf.

I wonder how bad that leaf would curl up if hit with a double dose?

One gallon/100? I’m not familiar with any that are labeled for a higher rate than 8oz per 100.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Here's that "shiny" leaf today... with deformed mutated new growth...

Since this one is so easy to recognize and keep up with I'm going to document daily.

The oaks are trying like hell to put on new growth, and they start out looking okay, but as they get bigger, they begin to droop and look sickly.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Some perspective on the area I'm talking about...
Looking east/south east:


Looking south/south west/west
That tree line to the south is the neighborhood that wasn't damaged.
Prevailing winds in the area usually come from the south east
So for the chemical to get to me, it would have had to come up from that lowland, up over the cemetery hiil, and across another field.
Although, this field goes up to my neighbors field below/in front of the cemetery



Adjoining the cemetery on the north is my neighbors field, adjoining my property.
All of the area in these photos was sprayed on 04/29