tree treatments discussion

[treevet]

Recently tree soil drenches have come into vogue. This is based on increasing awareness of fibrous root quantity in the proximity of the trunk. Systemic treatments such as immidacloprid for eab etc. are becoming the norm as they are very labor non intensive and quite effective according to research.

Question: We have had impactful drought 4 out of the last 5 years. Ofcourse in a perfect world you would water the entire root system on a mature tree. Alternative.....just do a soil drench with water. I think this can suffice up to an impasse where there is just too much dry soil for perimeter roots not to dry out in extreme conditions.

What do you think. It is almost like putting a Gator Bag on a 3' dia. Tree. Will it work?.....better than giving up like the average homeowner would do when faced with this or putting a sprinkler on the tree that just waters the grass or runs off.

 

[ATH]

Certainly, that water is going to benefit the tree. However, my concern would be the condition of the larger root system. If it gets too dry, it is going start dying off. Maybe a more blended approach would be beneficial? Water at the base frequently and soaker hose or sprinkler every 3-4 weeks?

I have not seen any research about water uptake at the trunk, just treatments so I am only guessing.

 

[treevet]

Certainly the fibrous roots in the perimeter would die off and if the basal watering was discontinued the tree would be in peril. But the tree will translocate the basal water imbibed to the roots in the dry area. Would that be enough?

I have looked for and requested research but found none. Sometimes a mature tree is just not going to get watered in its extremeties. Think parks, huge acreages, etc.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've seen this method work to some extent in small back yards.

I tell people to soak the basal area of the tree, I have started "dishing out" basal areas so water will be detained and perk through.

Then there is Wulkie's study with his large I.D. hoses where he watered Chicago park trees with a drip-line flood. I've taken to calling it "perk irrigation".

Another method I have seen work is to put a kiddie pool out under the tree, knock holes in the bottom so that it will drain slowly. I've told people to do this when there are watering restrictions in a region.

A few years ago, a local company was doing macro-fusion w/ highly dilute fert to get water into specimen trees.

 

[treevet]

Interesting stuff....esp. like the swimming pool idea. I have had my yard full of pre drilled buckets but a whole pool seeping.....great idea.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Interesting stuff....esp. like the swimming pool idea. I have had my yard full of pre drilled buckets but a whole pool seeping.....great idea.

Thankyou...thankyou verymuch

 

[treevet]

We were working on a beautiful estate today that obviously the grass was not a priority. Grass is basically a spring crop around here. If you don't throw away literally thousands of dollars on it during the no rain summer....it goes dormant. It doesn't generally completely die, but will come back.

My client is totally into the trees and it is quite a chore for her to water properly in the summer.

What if tree services offered and engineered a sprinkler system......set up only to water the tree's root systems? It could be subcontracted to the experts in that field.

 

[jefflovstrom]

What if tree services offered and engineered a sprinkler system......set up only to water the tree's root systems? It could be subcontracted to the experts in that field.

You could ask FTA to design it.
Jeff

 

[treevet]

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[pdqdl]

We were working on a beautiful estate today that obviously the grass was not a priority. Grass is basically a spring crop around here. If you don't throw away literally thousands of dollars on it during the no rain summer....it goes dormant. It doesn't generally completely die, but will come back.

My client is totally into the trees and it is quite a chore for her to water properly in the summer.

What if tree services offered and engineered a sprinkler system......set up only to water the tree's root systems? It could be subcontracted to the experts in that field.

Why trouble with inventing something new, when lawn irrigation does just fine for the trees? There are a lot of arborists that seem to think that benefiting the lawn is bad for the tree, but I am not part of that crowd.

If your customer wants to irrigate the trees, get a quote from a lawn sprinkler installer, and then tell her how to set the irrigation timer to help out the trees the most. Any variety of irrigation installation that does not emulate natural rainfall (which lands on the lawn as well as the trees) will eventually cause problems for the trees, unless it is to only provide relief in drought conditions.

 

[treevet]

Why trouble with inventing something new, when lawn irrigation does just fine for the trees? There are a lot of arborists that seem to think that benefiting the lawn is bad for the tree, but I am not part of that crowd.

If your customer wants to irrigate the trees, get a quote from a lawn sprinkler installer, and then tell her how to set the irrigation timer to help out the trees the most. Any variety of irrigation installation that does not emulate natural rainfall (which lands on the lawn as well as the trees) will eventually cause problems for the trees, unless it is to only provide relief in drought conditions.

Any lawn is unhealthy for trees. The healthier the lawn over the root system the worse it is for the tree. My idea is a set up to water a mulched over root system during drought. Why would you want to water otherwise. Sprinkler systems are for grass.

Sprinkler systems generally emit too often and too little for trees bringing root systems to the surface and making them more susceptable to dry weather if no system is in use.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Maybe run all the sewer pipes under the root zone?
Jeff

 

[treevet]

Or maybe stored spring rainwater in containers.

Sewer water would be a negative with water soluble salts.

 

[ATH]

Why trouble with inventing something new, when lawn irrigation does just fine for the trees? There are a lot of arborists that seem to think that benefiting the lawn is bad for the tree, but I am not part of that crowd......

Agreed that we don't need to invent something new, but maybe tapping into a new market with an existing product isn't such a bad idea. If a lawn sprinkler is on long enough to benefit the trees it is on too long for the grass. Using the same systems though to set up tree specific zones and timing would be good for the trees.

Storing rainwater is also a great idea. Trouble is, that is a LOT of water to store if you want enough to do something meaningful for 2 or 3 months out of the year... Let's say you want to give the tree 25 gallons of water every other week (that is really not very much, but a number to start with). If you are looking at a 6-8 week dry period, you need to store 150-200 gallons of water. Who has a "high end" landscape (assuming those are the folks willing to invest in these systems) that is willing to include a 200 gallon tank as a part of that?

 

[treevet]

Let's say you want to give the tree 25 gallons of water every other week (that is really not very much, but a number to start with).

you always hear from the experts how much water in gals. to give a tree but rarely hear HOW to give it. If the lawn is parched and a pavement like surface then a sprinkler likely will just run off out of the root zone.

If you have a lush country club over the root zone you know where that h20 goes. But if you give it in JPS' swimming pool type of delivery or you give it to a mulched surface.....then you are doing something very positive.

 

[sgreanbeans]

What happened to deep root watering and drip irrigation?
In Lake Elsinore, Ca. We had 4 Oaks at Canyon Hills. All 4 trees were brought in by Valley Crest. Big mature Oaks, we installed drip irrigation for them and would do a deep root watering about every 2 months, seemed to work fine.
We used the little 3 foot dealies, tapped into the quick coupler off the system and would let them sit about 1/2 an hour in each spot, moving them around the root zone.

 

[jefflovstrom]

What happened to deep root watering and drip irrigation?
In Lake Elsinore, Ca. We had 4 Oaks at Canyon Hills. All 4 trees were brought in by Valley Crest. Big mature Oaks, we installed drip irrigation for them and would do a deep root watering about every 2 months, seemed to work fine.
We used the little 3 foot dealies, tapped into the quick coupler off the system and would let them sit about 1/2 an hour in each spot, moving them around the root zone.

Those the oaks on the corners of Canyon Hills and Lost? Three are dead. We have been doing that property for a few years. They just turned another section over to us. We took out one dead oak in the median on Canyon Hills near Railroad Canyon. I thik I have pics.
Jeff

 

[jefflovstrom]

Yup, here.
Jeff

 

[treevet]

What happened to deep root watering and drip irrigation?
In Lake Elsinore, Ca. We had 4 Oaks at Canyon Hills. All 4 trees were brought in by Valley Crest. Big mature Oaks, we installed drip irrigation for them and would do a deep root watering about every 2 months, seemed to work fine.
We used the little 3 foot dealies, tapped into the quick coupler off the system and would let them sit about 1/2 an hour in each spot, moving them around the root zone.

I just think when you have to do all that "tapping into" and "moving around" stuff and the ho has a lot of trees.....it is nice in theory but it just doesn't get done.

Nobody wants to pay for watering and the tree guy (us) doesn't want to be the donater of the service during busy season. So it just doesn't get done properly and everyone involved just cringes on the edge of their chairs and hopes the trees make it through the drought like they "usually" do. But secondary issues come into effect with insects and or diseases.

Signs of drought stress might include wilting, curling of leaves, tip burn and marginal necrosis of foliage, yellowing and browning of most or all of the foliage and the loss of virtually all of the leaves. Evergreens might show needles turning yellow, red or purple or they might turn brown at the tips of the needles that may progress to the twigs.

The easier the "dose and timing" can be made to be the more likely it will happen IMO. Go in the garage and press the button on the sprinkler box for 2 hours into the mulch bed around the trees and go sit on the couch.

 

[pdqdl]

Treevet, I agree with you that frequent shallow watering does not promote proper root development. The same is true, both for lawns and for trees.

In your best, anti-lawn response, can you honestly say that you have ever seen a tree suffering from drought stress in an irrigated lawn?

Some of my thoughts on the topic:

1. Lawns are invariably over-watered. Watering well for the trees does not over water the lawns, unless you are already watering plants that don't need it.

2. The vast majority of the tree roots is in what, the top 18" of the soil? That is right where the grass is living, too. They both get the same water, although some trees sink their roots fantastic distances for water. All that means is that the trees will get water when the grass has dried up. It doesn't mean that the trees can only get water from deep in the earth.

3. Drip irrigation will create a root system that surrounds the emitters. Unless you infest the ground around a tree, you may be causing the tree to have a rather limited root system dependent upon the irrigation. Unless, of course, you only turn it on when drought comes to town. [Probably at the same time that no-watering ordinances kick-in!]

4. I don't think I have ever seen trees suffering from poor nutrition, poor maintenance related disease, or stunted growth in a well maintained, fertilized, and irrigated yard. WHY do so many arborists promote that good lawn maintenance is bad (or inadequate) for the trees? Show me some pics! Maybe an example or two?