tree treatments discussion

[treevet]

ACTUALLY turf drinks 95% of the water in the first 8inches if soil QUOTE]

That is interesting....any study you can cite? Where did you get that info 101?

 

[ATH]

Or just use gator bags , sounds like the same process ...

Yeah...but you would need to fill up that bag 'several' times during a day to be beneficial to a larger tree. They are good for small trees, but bigger trees need so much water, I'm not sure that even a daily filling would do too much good (but it obviously isn't going to hurt the tree).

 

[treevet]

Yeah...but you would need to fill up that bag 'several' times during a day to be beneficial to a larger tree. They are good for small trees, but bigger trees need so much water, I'm not sure that even a daily filling would do too much good (but it obviously isn't going to hurt the tree).

I agree but they might be good for a young tree if you staked them up in a circle over the perceived root system. I think they hold 30 gals.

Every tree I plant gets a whole kit with it and they pay for it if they want a guarantee. Mulch, Gator bag, 4 foot staked fence (big deer problems here) and I have started putting refridgerator hoses (short hose with nothing on one (inside bag) end and hose coupling on fence end zip tied to the fence). They just have to bring a hose and couple it to the short hose and fill the bag.

If no short hose we just use bag ties to hold the fence that circles the root ball and they can open the staked fence and go inside and fill the bag.

 

[treevet]

I am still a big advocate for verticle mulching. If the client can stand paying we do it every couple of years to a stressed tree or one on a hill or one with bad compaction.... and the more you do it the better as the quantity of holes is a positive. We mix pea gravel or sand with humus to fill which retains the hole and improves soil quality (very clay based here).

This in comparison with blasting air holes which imo just compresses the soil adjacent to the air hole blasted......and the hole you blasted is just gonna fill in again in short order anyway.

 

[pdqdl]

...then go above the post box and left click on the little square box that has a point on the bottom and looks like a quote in a cartoon.

This will give you a quote of the part of someones post you want to seperate and you can type below it responding to it.

Thank you for the reminder. If you prefer that for future debates, I'll stick to that format.

 

[Ed Roland]

I don't think I have ever seen trees suffering from poor nutrition, poor maintenance related disease, or stunted growth in a well maintained, fertilized, and irrigated yard. WHY do so many arborists promote that good lawn maintenance is bad (or inadequate) for the trees? Show me some pics! Maybe an example or two?

"Good lawn maintenance" is not good maintenance for mature trees. 5x annual fertilizations for the grass will have detrimental effects for the tree. Trees can only store energy in living cells. The amount of energy reserves is then directly related to the amount of healthy living cells in wood and inner bark. When elements are added to the soil natural biological processes are stimulated and there is an increase in growth rate. For this accelerated growth to happen, energy is required. That energy is, of course, coming from stored reserves or new substances produced from photosynthesis. The tree has to speed up its activities and possibly the tree can manage if energy required can keep up. But what if this stimulated growth outpaces energy reserves/production? Large leaves and long shoots can be expected before the decline spiral. There may not be enough energy left to make new wood, bark or to supply the living cells in the trunk or roots. These living cells are dependant upon the leaves for their energy.
So, while saturating the soil with elements might = "good maintenance" for turf, know that the tree roots sharing the same space in the soil have to deal with it as best they can.
I not only recommend mulch. I recommend a giant mulch ring all the way to the dripline to keep turf pros from harming client trees.
Just one way turf is an enemy of urban trees.

great conversation, guys.

 

[treevet]

"Good lawn maintenance" is not good maintenance for mature trees. 5x annual fertilizations for the grass will have detrimental effects for the tree. Trees can only store energy in living cells. The amount of energy reserves is then directly related to the amount of healthy living cells in wood and inner bark. When elements are added to the soil natural biological processes are stimulated and there is an increase in growth rate. For this accelerated growth to happen, energy is required. That energy is, of course, coming from stored reserves or new substances produced from photosynthesis. The tree has to speed up its activities and possibly the tree can manage if energy required can keep up. But what if this stimulated growth outpaces energy reserves/production? Large leaves and long shoots can be expected before the decline spiral. There may not be enough energy left to make new wood, bark or to supply the living cells in the trunk or roots. These living cells are dependant upon the leaves for their energy.
So, while saturating the soil with elements might = "good maintenance" for turf, know that the tree roots sharing the same space in the soil have to deal with it as best they can.
I not only recommend mulch. I recommend a giant mulch ring all the way to the dripline to keep turf pros from harming client trees.
Just one way turf is an enemy of urban trees.

great conversation, guys.

Great post Ed......dynamic equillibrium!

Negative aspects of salt involved with fertilization must also be considered.

 

[pdqdl]

Who'da thought it, Ed? I'm coming in on your side with the fertilization issue, although I think that your argument is botanically & biochemically flawed. You may recall that I have always been one of the folks that generally spoke against tree fertilization as a profit center, particularly in lawns that are already getting lawn fertilization.

Now that I look at it in that light, the bigger mulch rings do keep the chemicals out of some of the root zone. Not much though...

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Or just use gator bags , sounds like the same process ...

It is a matter of volume and local ordinance. When there are watering restrictions you can have a kiddie pool, this gets a large volume into a larger area faster and does not look like ten gator bags under a big tree.

The problems with gators is that they are meant for small trees, some people use the Miracle Grow watering spike, but that can be a PITA for an H/O to move around.

 

[treevet]

It is a matter of volume and local ordinance. When there are watering restrictions you can have a kiddie pool, this gets a large volume into a larger area faster and does not look like ten gator bags under a big tree.

The problems with gators is that they are meant for small trees, some people use the Miracle Grow watering spike, but that can be a PITA for an H/O to move around.

That is the whole deal IMO too. If a pita....they not gonna do it.

Still would love to know if the soil drench (at base maybe with a soaker hose) is feasible. Probably never be known as who has time for research anymore.

 

[pdqdl]

I have been watering trees for many years with "soil trench" technology. We might have a business park with a couple hundred trees to water, so we hook up a manifold for 5 garden hoses to our water tank, then put a hose at the base of each tree.

The operator just keeps the pump running, then walks to the back tree, carrying the hose to a new tree at the front, walk to the back-move to the front,...all day long. Move the truck when needed.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

That is the whole deal IMO too. If a pita....they not gonna do it.

Still would love to know if the soil drench (at base maybe with a soaker hose) is feasible. Probably never be known as who has time for research anymore.

I think that products like Merit have shown the uptake value for years. I've started using organic fert/amendments in the basal area over the past few years. Though not enough subjects/consistency to report anything.

A PhD with TCoT in Chi reported on total soil replacement of the basal zone with high organics a few years ago. it was a WAA conference I saw him at.

 

[treeclimber101]

ACTUALLY turf drinks 95% of the water in the first 8inches if soil QUOTE]

That is interesting....any study you can cite? Where did you get that info 101?

I had read it in a turf magazine a few years ago , can't remember in what context but it was to do with mulch rings and mulch mounding , it also covered damage done by thatching machines and aerators to the surface roots of a tree .Hence they recommended a healthy ring to cover about 80% of a tree drip line at least , and a 125% to be optimimum

 

[treeclimber101]

It is a matter of volume and local ordinance. When there are watering restrictions you can have a kiddie pool, this gets a large volume into a larger area faster and does not look like ten gator bags under a big tree.

The problems with gators is that they are meant for small trees, some people use the Miracle Grow watering spike, but that can be a PITA for an H/O to move around.

They have gators for trees up to 15" caliber , they look like a small waterbed bladder around the tree but work well in the summer , you could probably also use the bags like they use around a pool when they close them , just pop a few pin holes in them every couple of inches ..

 

[treevet]

Some new info and vids on the Resistograph. Looks very user friendly and less expensive than it used to be.

http://www.imldistribution.com/application-videos/

 

[sgreanbeans]

Those the oaks on the corners of Canyon Hills and Lost? Three are dead. We have been doing that property for a few years. They just turned another section over to us. We took out one dead oak in the median on Canyon Hills near Railroad Canyon. I thik I have pics.
Jeff

WOW, THAT SUCKS!!!!!
when I left Gothic, they just had lost that to LDI. I put tons, TONS of work into that street scape right there! Actually won an award for best street scape in 03. Really bums me out that they didn't make it. The issue we constantly had up there was the reclaimed water system, the builder, Pardee, would not add filters to the pump house, we where always cleaning out the drip emitters and the pop up filters, they would get filled with little chunks of toilet paper (eewwww!) and clog the nozzles. So I was there, EVERYDAY for a year, checking those things, making adjustments on those DX timers. Reg Rhea was our tech, took a water sample and put it under the scope, nasty stuff, we always had fresh water and antibacterial soap with us, then would watch as the kids ran through the water playing and having fun, while their parent sat on the grass next to those purple signs I put in "Caution, non-potable, reclaimed water, do not consume"
MAN THAT REALLY BUGS ME, but that is for sure the same trees. When did you do it? Good ol CANYON HELL!!
glad you got the work though, and not Dean!
I have a sick feeling in my stomach right now, that really bums me, those WHERE great trees. I was like a Prison Warden there with my guys, wouldn't let them leave unless every emitter was checked.
I'm sure they died from lack of water.....right? I know Valley Crest did everything they could to get them in properly. Was a HUGE marketing project for Pardee, always,ALWAYS had the big wigs popping up on us.
Are they done building that out?

 

[sgreanbeans]

Yup, here.
Jeff

Wow, Looking at those kills me! It is obvious that they had problems, that street scape was filled with Ralph Eleftus (sp?) Pivets, Gazania and a bunch of other perennials and very little Mia Porum, again (sp)!
That Mia Porum looks huge!
Looks very different from when I had it. I'm guessing that the HOA took over, they prob didn't want to spend the money it took to take care of it, if I remember right we charged $17,000 a month to take care of that one, the park and Lost, then there was a third street, but I cannot remember the name. Up by the school
Did all those nasty Sycamores make it?
I will see if we have pics of it in 02/03.

 

[sgreanbeans]

So Jeff answered my question, hard and fast! Guess the drip doesn't do too well. :censored:

 

[sgreanbeans]

Some new info and vids on the Resistograph. Looks very user friendly and less expensive than it used to be.

http://www.imldistribution.com/application-videos/

That will be very useful, what does something like that run?

 

[treevet]

I have not looked into it yet but the owner called me and sent me a link but I saw an entry level price of $795 I think. He will call you right back or email you with info.