tree workers inured by rope entering chipper

[imagineero]

Don't tell me what I have done or not done! I already told you what I did in a similar situation! So cutting the rope would be unintelligent? Keeping a saw close for this situation is ignorant? Gave you all good advice but I really don't think I will bother talking to you anymore its a waste!

I normally wouldn't bother repeating myself, but what you're suggesting potentially puts other peoples lives at risk so I think it's worth taking the time.

so let's go over it again....

if you get in trouble the other guy can stop the feeders or reverse them

As already mentioned several times in this thread, once a rope has passed the feed rollers there is no way of stopping it. Shutting down the machine, stopping or reversing the rollers, all have zero effect. The same is true of winch cables, vine like material etc. This is mentioned in the operating manual for the chipper, and is also one of the warning stickers on the machine. The size of the rope is smaller than the gap between the rollers, so the rope/cable/vine will simply keep going into the machine, taking whatever it is wrapped around with it.

Have a small top handle saw right with him cut the damn rope ASAP

Once the rope has wrapped around the disk or drum, 200' of rope will be sucked into the machine in less than 1 second. Are you suggesting you can notice the rope has passed the rollers, stop the rollers (no effect), realise the rollers are not working, pickup the saw, start it, and cut through the rope in less than 1 second?

So cutting the rope would be unintelligent?

Thankfully you would not even have time to consider picking up the saw, because if you did and you managed to get to the rope in time, the rope would likely wrap round the saw and suck that in too, probably with you attached to it. You might as well say "I buck the first log as the tree is falling, saves a little time", or "I never worry about people shooting me, if they do I just move out of the way of the bullet".

Keeping a saw close for this situation is ignorant?

It sure is. The saw cannot possibly be of any use, so all it does is give you a false sense of security.

Have a man at the chipper when ever the feed wheels are engaged don't walk away unless they are stopped

This is a good idea, and something that we always do, but whenever I've heard of this kind of accident occurring what has generally happened is that it was not obvious a rope was about to go into the chipper. It's often an older faded rope which is not easy to see, and it may be wrapped around the branch underneath where you can't see it. In that case, the man at the chipper with a hand on the control bar will be of no use since the rope will be in the machine (and unable to be stopped) before you ever notice what has happened. In most cases, this event happens so quickly that you don't even know why you've been hurt, or why one of your workers is now dead. It's only later you figure out what went on.

This type of accident is thankfully not all that common, mostly because there aren't that many times your average residential crew is able to get a chipper right up to the tree. If you are in those situations, then the steps you can take to reduce the possibility of it happening are;

Understand and believe that a rope that has entered the chipper cannot be stopped or reversed in any way. Believe that it will be pulled in with enough force to pull the tree you are in right out of the ground with you in it. It will take everything with it, and there is no time to avoid it.

Make all your crew aware of this also.

Keeping the chipper far enough away from the tree that no rope can reach it.

If in the tree, try to use the shortest rope possible. Try to have the tail of your rope either coiled and in the tree with you so it cannot be put in the chipper, or redirected through a crotch so the tail is on the ground far from the lowering zone which reduces the chance of it becoming entangled in brush.

With lowering ropes, keeping them in a rope bin or flaked out somewhere far from the LZ helps. Have one person nominated to deal with the lowering rope so it doesn't get out of hand.

If using a tag line, remove it from the LZ once the piece is on the ground, and put it somewhere it cannot become entangled in brush.

If winching, keeping the winch cable spooled on the drum while chipping is the safest thing. If (like most people) you hookup the next pull while the last piece is being chipped, then use a 3 man operation - one man hooking up the cable, one man on the controls, and a third man off to the side keeping the cable out of the material being fed in.

If chipping vines, keep it short. 6'-8' is a good size for safety.

Even if there were a chipper made that could instantly stop the disk/drum, and you had a man on the controls ready to activate it, it still wouldn't help. In all cases I've seen, people had not even noticed the rope had entered the machine. By the time you realize it has happened, it's too late. The safety needs to happen before the rope ever gets near the machine.

Shaun

 

[lone wolf]

I normally wouldn't bother repeating myself, but what you're suggesting potentially puts other peoples lives at risk so I think it's worth taking the time.

so let's go over it again....


Like I told you I already had it happen and I cut the rope! 200 feet a second is not accurate you have to take many things under consideration! A disk and a drum chipper will act different

As already mentioned several times in this thread, once a rope has passed the feed rollers there is no way of stopping it. Shutting down the machine, stopping or reversing the rollers, all have zero effect. The same is true of winch cables, vine like material etc. This is mentioned in the operating manual for the chipper, and is also one of the warning stickers on the machine. The size of the rope is smaller than the gap between the rollers, so the rope/cable/vine will simply keep going into the machine, taking whatever it is wrapped around with it.




Once the rope has wrapped around the disk or drum, 200' of rope will be sucked into the machine in less than 1 second. Are you suggesting you can notice the rope has passed the rollers, stop the rollers (no effect), realise the rollers are not working, pickup the saw, start it, and cut through the rope in less than 1 second?



Thankfully you would not even have time to consider picking up the saw, because if you did and you managed to get to the rope in time, the rope would likely wrap round the saw and suck that in too, probably with you attached to it. You might as well say "I buck the first log as the tree is falling, saves a little time", or "I never worry about people shooting me, if they do I just move out of the way of the bullet".



It sure is. The saw cannot possibly be of any use, so all it does is give you a false sense of security.



This is a good idea, and something that we always do, but whenever I've heard of this kind of accident occurring what has generally happened is that it was not obvious a rope was about to go into the chipper. It's often an older faded rope which is not easy to see, and it may be wrapped around the branch underneath where you can't see it. In that case, the man at the chipper with a hand on the control bar will be of no use since the rope will be in the machine (and unable to be stopped) before you ever notice what has happened. In most cases, this event happens so quickly that you don't even know why you've been hurt, or why one of your workers is now dead. It's only later you figure out what went on.

This type of accident is thankfully not all that common, mostly because there aren't that many times your average residential crew is able to get a chipper right up to the tree. If you are in those situations, then the steps you can take to reduce the possibility of it happening are;

Understand and believe that a rope that has entered the chipper cannot be stopped or reversed in any way. Believe that it will be pulled in with enough force to pull the tree you are in right out of the ground with you in it. It will take everything with it, and there is no time to avoid it.

Make all your crew aware of this also.

Keeping the chipper far enough away from the tree that no rope can reach it.

If in the tree, try to use the shortest rope possible. Try to have the tail of your rope either coiled and in the tree with you so it cannot be put in the chipper, or redirected through a crotch so the tail is on the ground far from the lowering zone which reduces the chance of it becoming entangled in brush.

With lowering ropes, keeping them in a rope bin or flaked out somewhere far from the LZ helps. Have one person nominated to deal with the lowering rope so it doesn't get out of hand.

If using a tag line, remove it from the LZ once the piece is on the ground, and put it somewhere it cannot become entangled in brush.

If winching, keeping the winch cable spooled on the drum while chipping is the safest thing. If (like most people) you hookup the next pull while the last piece is being chipped, then use a 3 man operation - one man hooking up the cable, one man on the controls, and a third man off to the side keeping the cable out of the material being fed in.

If chipping vines, keep it short. 6'-8' is a good size for safety.

Even if there were a chipper made that could instantly stop the disk/drum, and you had a man on the controls ready to activate it, it still wouldn't help. In all cases I've seen, people had not even noticed the rope had entered the machine. By the time you realize it has happened, it's too late. The safety needs to happen before the rope ever gets near the machine.

Shaun

. Every situation is different my situation was a climbing line was put in with a branch by a Groundie and it wound up like a winch and started bending the tree the climber was in so I simply cut the rope at the chipper I happen to keep a MS 200 T hanging on the hyd handles. if it would have kept going it may have broke the tree! And yes I can stop a winch cable I have Amsteel Blue and it can be cut! So is your advice to do nothing? And that part you posted about the saw getting wrapped up in the rope is one hell of a stretch! Don't you know how fast a saw will cut a rope under tension!

 

[lone wolf]

What didn't you like Corbin or is it Treeco or is it Del?

 

[imagineero]

. Every situation is different my situation was a climbing line was put in with a branch by a Groundie and it wound up like a winch and started bending the tree the climber was in so I simply cut the rope at the chipper I happen to keep a MS 200 T hanging on the hyd handles. if it would have kept going it may have broke the tree! And yes I can stop a winch cable I have Amsteel Blue and it can be cut! So is your advice to do nothing? And that part you posted about the saw getting wrapped up in the rope is one hell of a stretch! Don't you know how fast a saw will cut a rope under tension!

I don't get your point. You are advocating cutting the rope after it has entered the chipper rather than keeping the rope from the chipper, and saying that you have a good chance of doing so? You're absolutely on par with saying "yeah it's ok to climb up into the feed chute and kick logs in, there's a last chance pull cord there for that reason". Seriously, this is an area that ought to have zero tolerance.

Sounds like you got pretty lucky, considering the number of people killed or seriously injured who also avoided death by a narrow margin. From the sounds of it, your rope managed to get coiled round the shaft rather than the disk/drum. As a result of that, it fed on at a speed humans can comprehend rather than entering as a whip crack. Don't fool yourself though; you didn't avoid death by your quick thinking. You risked death by your poor practices. Had the rope been taken up by the blade any one of the 100 times per second the blades are going past, that rope would have gone through in a shot. As luck had it, it wound up on the shaft at the rate of only about 1'/second. You made a good call to cut it and probably saved your climbers life. Not putting his life at risk would have been the better option.

My advice has already been written above, and it's sound. If you see a rope entering a chipper, do not attempt to cut it. Run. If someone else's life is on the line then you've got to make that call at the time. It's very much a question like "I see a guy falling out of a tree, what should I do?" Cutting the rope really isn't that far away from attempting to catch the falling climber. In your case you were lucky that it fed onto the shaft at a very slow rate, but had it caught on a blade the rate of feed would have been close to 450'/second or 300 miles an hour. This isn't a joke. Even considering cutting it is madness.

In the case of the near miss my friends company experienced, they were very lucky. The guy who was attempting to untie the rope from the branch got smashed in the head and his hard hat saved his life. He received a concussion and was completely unaware of what had happened. The other guy caught in a very mild bight received broken ribs, broken fingers and rope burn and was off work nearly 3 months. There is no way anybody could have cut the rope. The only way to prevent this sort of injury is to prevent the rope ever entering the chipper, I can't make it any plainer than that. It's a hazard that many people are not even aware of. Trying to cut the rope after it has entered the chipper is very much like trying to grab a branch as you're falling out of a tree. Could save your life but probably not.

Shaun

 

[lone wolf]

I don't get your point. You are advocating cutting the rope after it has entered the chipper rather than keeping the rope from the chipper, and saying that you have a good chance of doing so? You're absolutely on par with saying "yeah it's ok to climb up into the feed chute and kick logs in, there's a last chance pull cord there for that reason". Seriously, this is an area that ought to have zero tolerance.

Sounds like you got pretty lucky, considering the number of people killed or seriously injured who also avoided death by a narrow margin. From the sounds of it, your rope managed to get coiled round the shaft rather than the disk/drum. As a result of that, it fed on at a speed humans can comprehend rather than entering as a whip crack. Don't fool yourself though; you didn't avoid death by your quick thinking. You risked death by your poor practices. Had the rope been taken up by the blade any one of the 100 times per second the blades are going past, that rope would have gone through in a shot. As luck had it, it wound up on the shaft at the rate of only about 1'/second. You made a good call to cut it and probably saved your climbers life. Not putting his life at risk would have been the better option.

My advice has already been written above, and it's sound. If you see a rope entering a chipper, do not attempt to cut it. Run. If someone else's life is on the line then you've got to make that call at the time. It's very much a question like "I see a guy falling out of a tree, what should I do?" Cutting the rope really isn't that far away from attempting to catch the falling climber. In your case you were lucky that it fed onto the shaft at a very slow rate, but had it caught on a blade the rate of feed would have been close to 450'/second or 300 miles an hour. This isn't a joke. Even considering cutting it is madness.

In the case of the near miss my friends company experienced, they were very lucky. The guy who was attempting to untie the rope from the branch got smashed in the head and his hard hat saved his life. He received a concussion and was completely unaware of what had happened. The other guy caught in a very mild bight received broken ribs, broken fingers and rope burn and was off work nearly 3 months. There is no way anybody could have cut the rope. The only way to prevent this sort of injury is to prevent the rope ever entering the chipper, I can't make it any plainer than that. It's a hazard that many people are not even aware of. Trying to cut the rope after it has entered the chipper is very much like trying to grab a branch as you're falling out of a tree. Could save your life but probably not.

Shaun

No keep it away by all means. I learned long ago watch the chipper closely dont walk away with it running! If you watch it feed you can stop it before the rope or a person gets pulled in! I had to cut the rope no other choice and I can tell you under tension it will cut fast! That's it!

 

[imagineero]

I know

No keep it away by all means. I learned long ago watch the chipper closely dont walk away with it running! If you watch it feed you can stop it before the rope or a person gets pulled in! I had to cut the rope no other choice and I can tell you under tension it will cut fast! That's it!

I know how fast a rope cuts under tension. I've tried cutting through wire core lanyards and ropes with chainsaws and handsaws, just to see what would happen. The results are scary, particularly with the weighted rope vs handsaw. A touch is all it takes! A rope that has entered a chipper is not a rope under tension, it's a rope potentially moving at 300 miles per hour. Let's not send the wrong signal out here, and give the impression that "the rope will be easy to cut because it's under tension". The rope will not be easy to cut, it's moving at a speed you cannot comprehend. Getting whipped by it can kill you. You will not even have time to comprehend the fact that it has entered the chipper, let alone make or act on a decision to cut it.

 

[lone wolf]

I know



I know how fast a rope cuts under tension. I've tried cutting through wire core lanyards and ropes with chainsaws and handsaws, just to see what would happen. The results are scary, particularly with the weighted rope vs handsaw. A touch is all it takes! A rope that has entered a chipper is not a rope under tension, it's a rope potentially moving at 300 miles per hour. Let's not send the wrong signal out here, and give the impression that "the rope will be easy to cut because it's under tension". The rope will not be easy to cut, it's moving at a speed you cannot comprehend. Getting whipped by it can kill you. You will not even have time to comprehend the fact that it has entered the chipper, let alone make or act on a decision to cut it.

You and I are talking about two different things here you are referring to an unloaded rope I was talking about a loaded rope attached to a tree then climber! Does that clear any of this up with you?

 

[imagineero]

We are clearly from two completely different planets.