Underbidding: This is getting to be complete nonsense!

[Sunrise Guy]

OK, I know our business is getting glutted these days with more and more tree guys and gals. I also know that illegals are willing to work for very little pay. With that in mind, I have been bidding very low (as I see it) on work in my area, but still getting underbid. I'm honestly wondering if I'm going to keep trying to make my living doing this thing that I love.

I went out on a bid today that was not too much work, but no walk in the park, either. Visualize a big hackberry about fifty feet tall. At about thirty feet or so, a codominant leader with a great deal of brushy growth on it, all very healthy, had split and fallen to the left of the tree as you face it. I believe it was a victim of some bad storms we've had lately. The branch was still attached at the crotch and would take more than a little T330 to cut it free. Some of it was resting on the ground, but a good part would need to be rigged down as a fence is directly under it. Half of the branch was in the neighbor's yard, the part not touching the ground was resting on the roof of a storage shed with a corrugated roof on it. From the split we're talking about wood starting at about 16" and then tapering off toward the tip.

I figured that I'd work the job alone and maybe need to make two trips to the dump at $20/load. I quoted the guy $200 and figured I was grossly underbidding, but I wanted to do the job by myself and felt that I'd at least make a few bucks. WRONG! The guy just e-mailed me to let me know that a "crew of guys" can do the job for less and get it done Tuesday. I had told the guy that I would need to do it Wednesday.

What is going on here? Am I the only one experiencing this crap? If I can believe that the guy got a crew who would do it for less, I see three illegals with chainsaws motoring down the branch and then dumping the wood in the park somewhere in the middle of the night for free. They'll probably make $50 each.

So, what is the solution? I left one professional field because everyone and his uncle was getting into it and working for peanuts. I like the nicer things in life and won't be a whore, but I'm starting to wonder if I can still make a living in the trees.

Are you guys finding that you are having to go lower and lower on your bids these days in order to get work? Is your area experiencing more and more illegals invading it? I'd really like some feedback here. Thanks, in advance.

 

[woodchux]

$200 sounds too cheap

 

[clearance]

I have wondered why your president has nuked your constitutional rights in the name of safety and security, but anyone can just walk across the borders from either Canada or Mexico. From what I understand the proliferation of illegal (cheap because it is illegal) labor is what people with say want, how could it be any other way? Servants, maids, gardeners in California who are illegal have been around for many years, is it any real suprise it has finally moved to treework?

 

[TreeChopper1]

It's not really illegals here in Iowa but jobs are getting scarce and the population in general is hurting for the cash. It is hard to get jobs just for the simple fact people are tight with the money due to low amount of jobs. Everybody and their dog does landscaping/treework here just to make a fewe bucks to get by. People here don't care about ins. work. comp. , etc. We have guys using ladders and a n old homey pulling crap with their trucks. I mean no experience whatsoever.It's getting nuts.:monkey:

 

[treeseer]

If you can't beat em on price, jump over em in quality.

Lots of demand for affordable yet professional tree care, not just cutting. What were you going to do for the rest of the hackberry, after the busted piece got gone? The rest of the crown would need restoration pruning to make a new, stable form. There are pests to check and roots to manage for the tree to recover from the trauma. If the whole tree is not cared for, future breakage is far more likely. If the owner can't see that, either they're blind or dumb or you've failed to educate them. Or all three I guess.

True story: I did an appraisal on a tree hit by a car. On the property I noticed a leaning red oak, 26" dbh. Owner told me it'd been leaning since 1996 hurricane. I saw it leaning on 2 limbs of a nearby white oak. I left him with a $600 bid to reshape the whole crown to lessen the lean, taking off 20% top to bottom to lessen the lean. it was in line to cream his garage and a big magnolia and the high wires if it failed.

Even tho this guy cleaned up on the appraisal --$1900 in his pocket--he called the local utility climber to come do a buzz job. For $300 the hack spiked up the red oak, cut 3 branches, then spiked up the white oak and cut the lower limb that was rubbing the red oak. 2 days later we had a mild rainstorm. You'll never guess what happened...:jawdrop:

Red oak failed, creaming garage and magnolia and wires. Underqualified, uninsured fools, and the worse fools that hire them. I got pics and will start a new thread tomorrow.

 

[clearance]

Let me get this right, the utility guy did exactly what was asked of him, did he not? Nice slag on the guy, throwing in not just the "hack" but mentioning he was a utility guy as well, to make it sound worse. Kind of like the treehuggers saying "industrial logging" instead of just "logging". Shoulda just cut that damaged crap down, end of story, done, but thats not the way you and your ilk play, keep it alive so you can bill 'em, again and again. How can you say it would not have failed after you got $600 to *** around and saw off a few branches?

 

[rebelman]

ANSI standard could level the field for competing bids. In writing. It should also prevent crap/hack work. I don't mind getting underbid if the work is standard. It rarely is.

 

[kennertree]

Let me get this right, the utility guy did exactly what was asked of him, did he not? Nice slag on the guy, throwing in not just the "hack" but mentioning he was a utility guy as well, to make it sound worse. Kind of like the treehuggers saying "industrial logging" instead of just "logging". Shoulda just cut that damaged crap down, end of story, done, but thats not the way you and your ilk play, keep it alive so you can bill 'em, again and again. How can you say it would not have failed after you got $600 to *** around and saw off a few branches?

Treeseer just told the truth. The guy is a hack by definition. Trees add value to property and work done on them by a proffesional is a good investment.

 

[woodchux]

I must admit I've snickered a few times
Driving by tarped roofs, at locations
which i had bid, but not gotten
because they were too cheap

 

[DDM]

ANSI standard could level the field for competing bids. In writing. It should also prevent crap/hack work. I don't mind getting underbid if the work is standard. It rarely is.

I'd like to see that enforced.

 

[okietreedude1]

I'd like to see that enforced.

Ya got that one right! There are ansis for hard hats and MANY guys dont wear them.

 

[treeseer]

"the utility guy did exactly what was asked of him, did he not"

Yes that was the whole trouble. Owner is elderly and does not see or think well.
To just take orders without seeing what is needed is not professional, it is pandering.

Weekender made a quick $300 by hacking and running, with no thought of what the whole tree's issues were. A competent utility man would have seen the risk and acted accordingly. I'm not slamming utility guys, but incompetents doing buzz work where arborists should be doing tree care costs us all.

The insurance company may see the fresh spike marks and fresh pruning wounds and investigate enough to go after the hack for causing the failure by cutting off the other tree's 6" branch that held up that red oak. That would be justice; why should we pay higher rates to pay for damage done by greedy idiots?

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

a leaning tree with possible/probable root damage, stuck in another tree supported by a 6 inch branch, with a garage, magnolia and wires in the danger zone.
sounds to me like a high risk of failure and a high consequence of failure
better to remove the tree and replace with another.
maybe the insurance company would have found fault with leaving it.
no?

 

[treeseer]

maybe the insurance company would have found fault with leaving it.
no?

Maybe they will, if they look hard enough to find out support was removed during pruning. Truth is, they do not look too closely at trees when they are standing.
An overall reduction of the sprawling side would have bought indefinite years, but if the client was not happy with the risk I would not have advocated against removal; too high a target rating.

aS it was, he was a pennypincher who got what he deserved for making Lincoln squeal so painfully.

No stem/root damage evident from the outside, but significant decay inside, likely from construction 18 yrs before.

 

[xtremetrees]

I hear ya sunrise guy. Hang in there and try different approaches. Generate as many contacts as you can, get rolling anyway you can and while your rolling its easier to keep rolling. Something produced from large tree removals, trimms that people recognize and want to team up with you about.
Advertise anyway you can and stick to your ethical standard of spikeless trimming, it will come back to you, its the law first and formost from the trees themselves , they will continue to be forgiving to you if you stick to your guns and dont spike the trimms.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I hear ya sunrise guy. Hang in there and try different approaches. Generate as many contacts as you can, get rolling anyway you can and while your rolling its easier to keep rolling. Something produced from large tree removals, trimms that people recognize and want to team up with you about.
Advertise anyway you can and stick to your ethical standard of spikeless trimming, it will come back to you, its the law first and formost from the trees themselves , they will continue to be forgiving to you if you stick to your guns and dont spike the trimms.

Thanks for the encouragement, man. I have three bids to chase today. With gas getting higher and higher, I may start calling on prospects on a scooter! I wonder if that'll turn 'em off. Maybe they want to see the truck pull up, I don't know. I pulled up to this very weird guy's house in my gf's Firebird a couple of bids ago. He commented on the car. This guy didn't go with me and even told me he decided to go with another guy who bid the same as I. Makes you wonder. Oh well, I guess you can't get 'em all!

 

[treeminator]

we have similar immigration problems in South Florida with the Haitian and latino immigrants working for low wages. last month i had 57 new accounts. this is wayyyyy more than the average tree company around here is getting these days. the hurricane clean up is all but done, the hack companis are struggling, and the chasers have left town. it's only the established and immigrant companies left to fight it out.

how do i counteract the immigrant's low prices?

better salesmen with fair prices. i can't tell you how many times i've won bids simply based on my estimators being clean cut, preppy, english speaking, and treating the customers like gold with respect and sincerity.

many customers have told me "we hired you for a little more money because we felt safer / more secure using you".

my profit margins aren't effected because my workers get paid $8/hr and the salesmen get $5 per home they sell.

 

[Grace Tree]

my profit margins aren't effected because my workers get paid $8/hr and the salesmen get $5 per home they sell.

I'd like to move down there and come work for you. My McDonald's job is putting me in too high a tax bracket.
Phil

 

[treeminator]

I'd like to move down there and come work for you. My McDonald's job is putting me in too high a tax bracket.
Phil

i know you're joking, but ironically, that's where i recruit my workers from... fast food places and grocery stores. my best climber is an ex-Subway employee. my best log carrier used to be a stockboy a Publix.

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

treeseer, I'll assume there was no evident bulging of the root ball on the opposite side of the lean.

I believe that any time a tree leans significantly (what's significantly? maybe enough that you would think you would see evidence other than the lean) and there is no evidence of cracking/damage in the trunk, that the roots have been damaged. if the tree leans, the rootball must push/pull on the roots. I believe the roots cannot slide in their space due to the the push/pull force, so the only option is to break.
so anytime a tree leans without above ground structural damage, there is root damage.
am I correct in this thinking?