Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Stepping up for the environment
I love the fact that this is being discussed so passionately.
I love the fact that this is being discussed so passionately.
Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil?
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Lewis Brander
Addicted to ArboristSite
Canola oil mixed with gas:
I read a thread, where a fellow in, I believe, Sweden is mixing canola oil in his gas to use in his 2 stroke equipment and testing it. He's used it in some of his smaller equipment (weed eaters, hedge trimmers) with no adverse affects so far that he can tell. He's also thinking about using it in in his smaller used saws to see how well it works. Apparently it's cheaper than buying regular mix oils to use in his equipment and just gets it from the grocery store. I'll have to go and dig up that thread again to see if he's posted more on it.
I remember my grandfather telling that during the war, when everything was rationed, that he had an old stationary engine he used on a saw blade to cut wood (engine with babbit brgs, Oil cups, etc). He could get some sort of veggie oil fairly cheap, used it in that engine and didn't see any advirse effects or abnormal wear. I always got a kick out of the story, when I remember it. Seems that with the prices of gas and oil today that some company hasn't been more adventurous in developing a veggie based oil that could be offered as a petrolium substtute. I'm no expert, nor have I kept up on all the technology going on in oil developement. Maybe there is an alternative being developed. I would be curious to know more about this. Any comments? Take care. Lewis.
I read a thread, where a fellow in, I believe, Sweden is mixing canola oil in his gas to use in his 2 stroke equipment and testing it. He's used it in some of his smaller equipment (weed eaters, hedge trimmers) with no adverse affects so far that he can tell. He's also thinking about using it in in his smaller used saws to see how well it works. Apparently it's cheaper than buying regular mix oils to use in his equipment and just gets it from the grocery store. I'll have to go and dig up that thread again to see if he's posted more on it.
I remember my grandfather telling that during the war, when everything was rationed, that he had an old stationary engine he used on a saw blade to cut wood (engine with babbit brgs, Oil cups, etc). He could get some sort of veggie oil fairly cheap, used it in that engine and didn't see any advirse effects or abnormal wear. I always got a kick out of the story, when I remember it. Seems that with the prices of gas and oil today that some company hasn't been more adventurous in developing a veggie based oil that could be offered as a petrolium substtute. I'm no expert, nor have I kept up on all the technology going on in oil developement. Maybe there is an alternative being developed. I would be curious to know more about this. Any comments? Take care. Lewis.
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I dont know for certain, but I would imagine that vegi oil would be tough on them also. After all if you pour some canola oil on your grass it will kill it. The bad part of petrol based oil is not the oil itself but the chemical and compounds used as additives....
I dont know about the fine mist theory..atleast not with tacky bar oil. Most of the oil is absorbed by the cips,dust or thrown of the tip. In other words the operator isnt working in ahze of oil mist. When it comes to inhaltion it may be better to inhale vegi oil vs. dino oil. I have no idea. It also might be bad to inhale both, which is what I suspect.
I mean not have a detrimental effect on bar and chain life, or the life of the oil pump.
I know your not and what you are doing is why we all are on this site in the first place.Not trying to be argumentative here. Just trying to learn.
Ben,
If I get some time soon, I may gather up a few different bugs and worms and put both bar oil & vegi oil on them to just observe. I would like to do the same with some plants. I think it's safe to say though that the petrol oil, with it's added chemicals, will most likely have more of an effect on the worms.
As far as the mist, it is not a theory. I know this as I carve near the front of where I park my pickup (it's the most convenient place for me). The hood, though a good 5 yards away, gets covered with a film of oil which then collects dust. Even the windshield gets misted. The evidence is also on my coveralls as well as my shoes. I have noticed more misting with canola oil but I would guess that to be due to the lower viscosity. Unfortunately, I can't turn the oiler down as none of my saws have adj oilers. As far as which is better to breath, I'm going with the vegi for the sheer fact there are no added chemicals. As you said: "The bad part of petrol based oil is not the oil itself but the chemical and compounds used as additives...."
As for the chain & bar, I knew what you meant. I just wanted you to clarify what is considered to be acceptable by the saw companies. What is it about straight vegi oil that would have a "detrimental effect" on the bar and chain life? As I said, I have been watching this stuff and there's oil on the chain and bar,.....all around. What else is needed? Am I missing something here?
And lastly, now that you brought up the pump, how could straight vegi oil be harder on it? Seems it would be easier on it being the vegi oil flows more freely. In other words, seems to me that the pump would work less therefore last longer. Again, am I missing something here?
Thanks,
rusty
If I get some time soon, I may gather up a few different bugs and worms and put both bar oil & vegi oil on them to just observe. I would like to do the same with some plants. I think it's safe to say though that the petrol oil, with it's added chemicals, will most likely have more of an effect on the worms.
As far as the mist, it is not a theory. I know this as I carve near the front of where I park my pickup (it's the most convenient place for me). The hood, though a good 5 yards away, gets covered with a film of oil which then collects dust. Even the windshield gets misted. The evidence is also on my coveralls as well as my shoes. I have noticed more misting with canola oil but I would guess that to be due to the lower viscosity. Unfortunately, I can't turn the oiler down as none of my saws have adj oilers. As far as which is better to breath, I'm going with the vegi for the sheer fact there are no added chemicals. As you said: "The bad part of petrol based oil is not the oil itself but the chemical and compounds used as additives...."
As for the chain & bar, I knew what you meant. I just wanted you to clarify what is considered to be acceptable by the saw companies. What is it about straight vegi oil that would have a "detrimental effect" on the bar and chain life? As I said, I have been watching this stuff and there's oil on the chain and bar,.....all around. What else is needed? Am I missing something here?
And lastly, now that you brought up the pump, how could straight vegi oil be harder on it? Seems it would be easier on it being the vegi oil flows more freely. In other words, seems to me that the pump would work less therefore last longer. Again, am I missing something here?
Thanks,
rusty
The chemicals and compunds I am refering to are found in motor oil. Bar oil doesnt have these. Bar oils is basiciy a straight 30 wt oil with a polymer tach additive.
From the sounds of things, Rusty, it seems like you are getting good results and that you have your mind set, so why the need for further discussion?
Veggi oil doesnt flow more well in cold weather at all. It in fact clouds up and becomes a semi solid. Also have you considered the effect that oxidized vegi oil will have on your pump.
I might also point out in regards to oil mist that a carving application is a little differant than a traditional saw application. I have bucked firewood all do behind a skidder and never noticed any residue on the skidders bumper plate.
So in other words just because you are getting decent life with a small saw and a short carving bar that vegi oil will work equally well for everyone? Like I said before, i'm sticking with sub $3 supertech bar oil.
BTW havent you guys thought of the reason why the OEM veggi based bar oils are so high in price? Is it becaseu of the myriad of additives they must add to get them to work properly or is it a supply and demand thing?
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From the sounds of things, Rusty, it seems like you are getting good results and that you have your mind set, so why the need for further discussion?
Like I said before, I am trying to learn. And if vegi oil is not better than "bar oil", I want someone to tell me why and how they know. So far, no one has convinced me with real world experience.
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Veggi oil doesnt flow more well in cold weather at all. It in fact clouds up and becomes a semi solid. Also have you considered the effect that oxidized vegi oil will have on your pump.
I overlooked the cold weather aspect. See, I learned something new. Not a problem for me though as I don't have to use a saw in cold weather. As for the oxidation, can you or someone else explain how this happens, after how long, ways of preventing it.....if there are any, etc, etc?
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I might also point out in regards to oil mist that a carving application is a little differant than a traditional saw application.
Yet another thing I hadn't considered and that's why I want more discussion. However, I have personally noticed oil on my clothes after cutting firewood too. Granted though, not as much as when carving...particularly with canola.
As for not noticing oil on the skidder, have you taken a very close look for this specifacally? I'm not talking about large clumps of oil but what would accumulate from a fine mist. For me, it is easy to identify on the windshield but not so much elsewhere. It makes a mess on the glass, as you can probably imagine.
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So in other words just because you are getting decent life with a samll saw and a short carving bar that vegi oil will work equally well for everyone? Like I said before, i'm sticking with sub $3 supertech bar oil.
No. I didn't say that nor did I imply it that I'm aware of. And, I'm not just using canola in my carving saws. Though not big by any stds, I have been using it in my 260 w/16 & 18" bars for firewood. Furthermore, I have not been using canola long. But, I have been observing the oil and where it goes & how much.
Any how, I have just been wondering if vegi oil is perhaps an all-too-often overlooked alternative to "bar oil". Alternative doesn't imply a workable solution to all users but it may be for many. I guess I'm as intrigued with the notion that so many people seem to be afraid of the term alternative than I am with the oils themselves.
The bottom line for me is the health aspect. I want someone to convince me that vegi oil is not healthier for me and the environment. Even IF there is a slight bit more wear on the saw, I don't care. To me, ones health and the environments health should be priority........if there's a workable alternative. But, that's just me.....
Thanks for the dialog, Ben.
r
Quote:
BTW havent you guys thought of the reason why the OEM veggi based bar oils are so high in price? Is it becaseu of the myriad of additives they must add to get them to work properly or is it a supply and demand thing?
ha ha, you edited before I posted, Ben. Anyhoo, you say "must add to get them to work properly". Well, exactley what additives are being added and why must they be added to make the oil work "properly"?
From the sounds of things, Rusty, it seems like you are getting good results and that you have your mind set, so why the need for further discussion?
Like I said before, I am trying to learn. And if vegi oil is not better than "bar oil", I want someone to tell me why and how they know. So far, no one has convinced me with real world experience.
Quote:
Veggi oil doesnt flow more well in cold weather at all. It in fact clouds up and becomes a semi solid. Also have you considered the effect that oxidized vegi oil will have on your pump.
I overlooked the cold weather aspect. See, I learned something new. Not a problem for me though as I don't have to use a saw in cold weather. As for the oxidation, can you or someone else explain how this happens, after how long, ways of preventing it.....if there are any, etc, etc?
Quote:
I might also point out in regards to oil mist that a carving application is a little differant than a traditional saw application.
Yet another thing I hadn't considered and that's why I want more discussion. However, I have personally noticed oil on my clothes after cutting firewood too. Granted though, not as much as when carving...particularly with canola.
As for not noticing oil on the skidder, have you taken a very close look for this specifacally? I'm not talking about large clumps of oil but what would accumulate from a fine mist. For me, it is easy to identify on the windshield but not so much elsewhere. It makes a mess on the glass, as you can probably imagine.
Quote:
So in other words just because you are getting decent life with a samll saw and a short carving bar that vegi oil will work equally well for everyone? Like I said before, i'm sticking with sub $3 supertech bar oil.
No. I didn't say that nor did I imply it that I'm aware of. And, I'm not just using canola in my carving saws. Though not big by any stds, I have been using it in my 260 w/16 & 18" bars for firewood. Furthermore, I have not been using canola long. But, I have been observing the oil and where it goes & how much.
Any how, I have just been wondering if vegi oil is perhaps an all-too-often overlooked alternative to "bar oil". Alternative doesn't imply a workable solution to all users but it may be for many. I guess I'm as intrigued with the notion that so many people seem to be afraid of the term alternative than I am with the oils themselves.
The bottom line for me is the health aspect. I want someone to convince me that vegi oil is not healthier for me and the environment. Even IF there is a slight bit more wear on the saw, I don't care. To me, ones health and the environments health should be priority........if there's a workable alternative. But, that's just me.....
Thanks for the dialog, Ben.
r
Quote:
BTW havent you guys thought of the reason why the OEM veggi based bar oils are so high in price? Is it becaseu of the myriad of additives they must add to get them to work properly or is it a supply and demand thing?
ha ha, you edited before I posted, Ben. Anyhoo, you say "must add to get them to work properly". Well, exactley what additives are being added and why must they be added to make the oil work "properly"?
i would imagine at a minimum that they would have to add a tac agent, a anitoxidant of some sort, and a pour point depressent.There very well could be a few more.
Ben,
You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers.. So why,...why do "they have to" add these things, particularly tac?
Also, my last post must have been so long you didn't notice my question about taking a close look on your skidder for oil mist. Have you?
Thanks, I appreciate it.
rusty
You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers.
. So why,...why do "they have to" add these things, particularly tac?Also, my last post must have been so long you didn't notice my question about taking a close look on your skidder for oil mist. Have you?
Thanks, I appreciate it.
rusty
To keep the oil from misting like you observed and to prolong bar life. And no I havent inspected the back of the skidder with a mag glass, but to the naked I I didnt observe any. Just like suinf red bar oil during the winter. The only place that has the died oil on it is a place that has come into contact with the chips.
Here's a life-cycle assesment on veggie bar oil : http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/5/173.htm
Ok, studies can be made to show anything I guess, but it indicates that when it comes to "green-house" gases it is better than mineral oil.
But I think the main issue is, as people have suggested in the thread earlier, that the main point (besides being able to do the job, lubricating) is that veggie oils are most likely better for health reasons. Of course, a bad additive might ruin an otherwise safe oil (mineral or veggie), but I can't imagine there are more unknown chemicals in veggie oil than in mineral oil.
I haven't used a chainsaw professionally, so I can't vouch for the long-term quality of vegetable bar oils during extreme conditions. But from what I've experienced veggie oil smells nice and look nice too The chain looks and feels "smoother" on the bar, and I haven't noticed any increase in heat. The oil also lasts longer, which would make the price a bit less steep. I think my dad bought Eko100 which is certified for -27C (-17F) and that's fine by me, it's excellent in summer too. There is vegetable oil that can be used down to -39C (-38F), colder than that I don't know. For hot summers vegetable oil works fine too, it doesn't become as "watery" as many mineral oils. Vegetable oil will "freeze" if kept still in freezing conditions for days (similar to olive oil in refrigerators), so it's recommended to keep saws and oil indoors over night.
I haven't tried vegetable two-stroke oil, but vegetable castor oil used to be in all the racing bikes some years ago. With vegetable oil becoming more and more hight-tech (even venturing into gentically modified plants) I'm sure we'll see that for our saws as well. And fuel similar to Aspen. I'm not sure about ethanol though, as that would mean heavier saws, or more refilling
I like vegetable oil, I use linseed oil to protect tools and tractor equipment from rust, on wood of course, and I use rapeseed oil to smoothen up folding knives, scissors and pliers that get in contact with food, whenever thats needed.
If I ever run out of bar oil I'd happily go into the kitchen and get the rapeseed oil I use for cooking (it has no protection against oxidization so I wouldn't leave it in the saw for too long though)
Edited : From what I know, Husqvarna no longer sells mineral bar oil in Europe, they only sell Veggie? (or EU at least)
For reference (in swedish, but sources are always good) : http://www.scandiaoil.se/03_smo/Industrioljor.asp , http://www.eko100.com/rwdx/cache/sagkedjeolja_889_AWXLO95510.asp
Ok, studies can be made to show anything I guess, but it indicates that when it comes to "green-house" gases it is better than mineral oil.
But I think the main issue is, as people have suggested in the thread earlier, that the main point (besides being able to do the job, lubricating) is that veggie oils are most likely better for health reasons. Of course, a bad additive might ruin an otherwise safe oil (mineral or veggie), but I can't imagine there are more unknown chemicals in veggie oil than in mineral oil.
I haven't used a chainsaw professionally, so I can't vouch for the long-term quality of vegetable bar oils during extreme conditions. But from what I've experienced veggie oil smells nice and look nice too
The chain looks and feels "smoother" on the bar, and I haven't noticed any increase in heat. The oil also lasts longer, which would make the price a bit less steep. I think my dad bought Eko100 which is certified for -27C (-17F) and that's fine by me, it's excellent in summer too. There is vegetable oil that can be used down to -39C (-38F), colder than that I don't know. For hot summers vegetable oil works fine too, it doesn't become as "watery" as many mineral oils. Vegetable oil will "freeze" if kept still in freezing conditions for days (similar to olive oil in refrigerators), so it's recommended to keep saws and oil indoors over night. I haven't tried vegetable two-stroke oil, but vegetable castor oil used to be in all the racing bikes some years ago. With vegetable oil becoming more and more hight-tech (even venturing into gentically modified plants) I'm sure we'll see that for our saws as well. And fuel similar to Aspen. I'm not sure about ethanol though, as that would mean heavier saws, or more refilling
I like vegetable oil, I use linseed oil to protect tools and tractor equipment from rust, on wood of course, and I use rapeseed oil to smoothen up folding knives, scissors and pliers that get in contact with food, whenever thats needed.
If I ever run out of bar oil I'd happily go into the kitchen and get the rapeseed oil I use for cooking
(it has no protection against oxidization so I wouldn't leave it in the saw for too long though)Edited : From what I know, Husqvarna no longer sells mineral bar oil in Europe, they only sell Veggie? (or EU at least)
For reference (in swedish, but sources are always good) : http://www.scandiaoil.se/03_smo/Industrioljor.asp , http://www.eko100.com/rwdx/cache/sagkedjeolja_889_AWXLO95510.asp
2Coilinveins
Former Member
Has anyone tried biodiesel as bar oil? That would take care of the oxidation issue brought up using straight vegi oil. Biodiesel has higher lubricity than dino diesel. If biodiesel can do such a good job lubing an injection pump, one would think it would lube a bar and chain just fine. Good argument for the lubricating properties of straight vegi oil too.
rupedoggy said:
I'm still cracking up over that one!
But it reminded me of that fact that some cars really CAN run on grease left over from the local diner!
Check this out http://www.bagelhole.org/drafts/Bio-Diesel_Fuel.html
With the price of gasoline, its a shame that it only works on converted diesal engines.
I tried canola oil in a pair of pruning saws today. Non-adjustable oilers in 38cc Poulan 2300's. These saws do not put out sufficient quanities of Stihl b&c oil. When I tried the canola, it looled like they were putting out 5 times as much. I would have to refil the oil tank before the gas tank is half empty. What oil might be inbetween the too thick oil and the too light canola? Might be a way to tune oil flow on saws with non-adjustable oilers. I need lots of oil on my bar & chain in the summer when it's over 100 degrees in the shade. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
"Any suggestions? Thanks!"
Get yourself a professional level saw, Mr Sawdust. You need Neiger to power port you a 346XP . One thing, with the Poulan's, as you say, funky oiler (common on all industrial homeowner type chainsaws). If you leak oil, at least it's veg.oil. Use it all Summer, no worries. When the saw is running I imagine the temperature gets up a bit. Viscosity of the oil doesn't change appreciably as temp goes up, and even if it does, so what?.
This Summer, know that the oil mist you're putting on the environment is food oil. The oil that gets on your clothing, food oil. When you scrape out your sidecase of sawdust & lubricant and then deposit it on Mrs Jones' lawn, food oil. Next time you spill it down your leg, food oil. Eat a sammich after working on saws, your hands are tainted....food oil. The way oil manages to spread itself around your tool bins, and saw areas, food oil. Accidentally spill it on a driveway, food oil. Treework over children's play areas, food oil. Working near water, ponds, etc, food oil. Working near public places, restaurants, commercial sites, food oil. Anybody on this website, Blaster, work at a ZOO? (everybody)
Food Oil !
At the end of the day, you've gotta face how you feel about. Let me just give you some food for thought. You switch to veggie oil, and imagine the WORST THING that could happen. For our European friends, please share with us the WORST THING thing that <i>has happened</i> using veggie oil.
Get yourself a professional level saw, Mr Sawdust. You need Neiger to power port you a 346XP
. One thing, with the Poulan's, as you say, funky oiler (common on all industrial homeowner type chainsaws). If you leak oil, at least it's veg.oil. Use it all Summer, no worries. When the saw is running I imagine the temperature gets up a bit. Viscosity of the oil doesn't change appreciably as temp goes up, and even if it does, so what?.This Summer, know that the oil mist you're putting on the environment is food oil. The oil that gets on your clothing, food oil. When you scrape out your sidecase of sawdust & lubricant and then deposit it on Mrs Jones' lawn, food oil. Next time you spill it down your leg, food oil. Eat a sammich after working on saws, your hands are tainted....food oil. The way oil manages to spread itself around your tool bins, and saw areas, food oil. Accidentally spill it on a driveway, food oil. Treework over children's play areas, food oil. Working near water, ponds, etc, food oil. Working near public places, restaurants, commercial sites, food oil. Anybody on this website, Blaster, work at a ZOO? (everybody)
Food Oil !
At the end of the day, you've gotta face how you feel about. Let me just give you some food for thought. You switch to veggie oil, and imagine the WORST THING that could happen. For our European friends, please share with us the WORST THING thing that <i>has happened</i> using veggie oil.
Stumper
One Man Band
Jim has been using Veggie exclusively for several years, ditto Tom Dunlap. I have been using it in pruning saws for a few years and just bit the bullet a few months ago and started running it in the big saws too. Yes it gels at low temps but it remains pourable at all temps I've tried and goes back to clear liquid in a warm oil tank. Even without tackifiers my subjective observation is that it actually lubes BETTER than "bar oil".
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
My goodness...
[Stumper]<b>Even without tackifiers my subjective observation is that it actually lubes BETTER than "bar oil".</b>[endquote]
THERE IT IS ! Finally THE <u>NEW TRUTH</u> !
You are being nominated for the <b>'Responsible and Honest Statement of the Year'</b> award.
[Stumper]<b>Even without tackifiers my subjective observation is that it actually lubes BETTER than "bar oil".</b>[endquote]
THERE IT IS ! Finally THE <u>NEW TRUTH</u> !
You are being nominated for the <b>'Responsible and Honest Statement of the Year'</b> award.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I could just hug you. See, I've learned that over the course of time, but it's not been possible for me to just come out and say it- <b> Veggie Oil works BETTER than petro oil</b>.
We've been doing it wrong since the birth of the chainsaw. How could it have happened? How could it have gone on this long?
We've been doing it wrong since the birth of the chainsaw. How could it have happened? How could it have gone on this long?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
My knees are shakin
Fellow arborists, today we've whacked a grand slam home run for the environment
Fellow arborists, today we've whacked a grand slam home run for the environment
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Everyone from Europe and Scandanavia, all together now...
Duhhhhhhh!
Duhhhhhhh!
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
....wait, what...? (OK, I'll announce it)
Official remark is in from Sweden,
About d@mn time
Official remark is in from Sweden,
About d@mn time
