Not really. Biodiesel and ethanol production is so inefficant it takes more energy to produce that what it puts out.
Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil?
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Crofter
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A lot of the initial projects to procuce alcohol and other biofuels did use more petroleum energy in than energy out if the fertilizer, fuel for land prep, harvesting, transportation, production etc, are all considered; undoubtedly this could be improved greatly and I am sure that as oil becomes more expensive the alternate fuels will get more attention. Right now it is more attractive for the big money boys to pump oil than it is to do research on alternates. You can be sure tho that they will be well prepared to switch production when the other cash cow dries up. Where there is the will there is a way. Right now it is dino oil that is greasing their skids!
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
There are other complex layers when considering costs.
Using bio fuels and bio bar lube keeps agricultural jobs closer to home. Rather than paying larger subsidies [agricultural welfare] the farmers have work to do. Would it be better to buy "cheaper" mineral oil and fuels and have more unemployment?
The costs of defending the seas so that those oil tankers can deliver the goods is artificially accounted for. The costs are on another ledger sheet.
The environmental costs of petro oil have to be much higher. I don't know this for a fact but it makes sense to me.
The world of Mad Max and Road Warrier are getting closer every day.
Using bio fuels and bio bar lube keeps agricultural jobs closer to home. Rather than paying larger subsidies [agricultural welfare] the farmers have work to do. Would it be better to buy "cheaper" mineral oil and fuels and have more unemployment?
The costs of defending the seas so that those oil tankers can deliver the goods is artificially accounted for. The costs are on another ledger sheet.
The environmental costs of petro oil have to be much higher. I don't know this for a fact but it makes sense to me.
The world of Mad Max and Road Warrier are getting closer every day.
Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tom, I agree that there is a very great amount of hidden subsidising of the oil industry. One you pointed out is the protection of shipping. This Iraq thing has to be pretty expensive too and it is more than a little likely just a cost of doing ( oil ) business. The Oil industry is a very powerfull lobby to government, and it is in their interests to have these subsidies hidden. Were the agenda to really promote energy efficiency and curb its use, the scenario of hiding the subsidy would shift dramatically and we would get a better picture of what various energy forms really cost, both in terms of dollars and in environmental degredation. When the powers that be are making money from the production and consumption of energy, they are not very credible leaders in the realm of conservation. Lip service only! The time is not yet ripe.
One word...HYDROGEN!
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Crofter said:
Bucky Fuller, of geodesic dome fame, said that our wages should be converted to reflect the buying power in energy units. He wrote about this over 60 years ago when energy was plentiful and cheap. He was a true visionary even without the dome part of his portfolio.
Observations in using Canola on my chainsaw bars so far:
Thinner oil which is pumped through the oiler faster.
Less tack.
Good observed lubrication properties.
Low smell.
Crystalizes at about 5-10 degrees below freezing.
The off the shelf store cooking oil costs less than bar oil (here anyway).
you use more of it so it works out about even.
It will not kill your lawn like regular bar oil will (the reason I originally tried it).
I would avoid using it in really cold weather unless I knew for sure it would not freeze up in the saw, but other than that there seems to be no drawbacks to using it. If was cutting in an area where I was concerned about environmental impact I would definitely use it. You can drink the stuff, try that with regular bar oil.
Lewis B, I was the one who posted last fall using Canola oil for pre-mixing in gas on the SamlarForum. So far I have used it in a junk weedwacker and chainsaw at 50-1. No problems so far except that it has a very high burn-off temperature and has a tendency to leave the muffler wet if you are using a weedwacker at anything less than full throttle. The saw works harder and burns it off better.
The interiors of the engines after a couple months use show parts bright and perfect. I am concerned about varnish buildup though, this is a problem with Castor Bean oil and they both share similar properties.
I will let everybody know what the results are this fall with pictures of the torn down engines.
Thinner oil which is pumped through the oiler faster.
Less tack.
Good observed lubrication properties.
Low smell.
Crystalizes at about 5-10 degrees below freezing.
The off the shelf store cooking oil costs less than bar oil (here anyway).
you use more of it so it works out about even.
It will not kill your lawn like regular bar oil will (the reason I originally tried it).
I would avoid using it in really cold weather unless I knew for sure it would not freeze up in the saw, but other than that there seems to be no drawbacks to using it. If was cutting in an area where I was concerned about environmental impact I would definitely use it. You can drink the stuff, try that with regular bar oil.
Lewis B, I was the one who posted last fall using Canola oil for pre-mixing in gas on the SamlarForum. So far I have used it in a junk weedwacker and chainsaw at 50-1. No problems so far except that it has a very high burn-off temperature and has a tendency to leave the muffler wet if you are using a weedwacker at anything less than full throttle. The saw works harder and burns it off better.
The interiors of the engines after a couple months use show parts bright and perfect. I am concerned about varnish buildup though, this is a problem with Castor Bean oil and they both share similar properties.
I will let everybody know what the results are this fall with pictures of the torn down engines.
YIKES!
2Coilinveins
Former Member
Ugh, what's vegi oil burnt in a 2 stroke SMELL like?
jimbo1490
ArboristSite Guru
Cooking oils all degrade rapidly (read that BURN) below 400F. Is that something you really want lubricating cylinder walls and bearings? The degredation by-products can create sludges and resins which are insoluble in gasoline (or any other common solvent I have tried). Again, do you really want that kind of thing in an expensive chainsaw? I've pulled a few perfectly good weedwackers out of the trash. Consumer weedwackers are fine for fooling around with cause they aint worth much, but not any motor you actually value. Just my HO
Jimbo
Jimbo
Smells something like when you use it for cooking but with the burnt gas stink added. Not nearly as bad as regular 2-stroke oil. I hear peanut oil through a weedwacker smells like you're cooking popcorn!
The stuff mixes instantly, and has not settled out in a container left sitting all winter, but then again most oils would be OK.
I decided to try it in some equipment that cost me nothing after I did some research and found out it is very similar to Castor oil. So far it works as well in the gas as it does on the bars. A side benefit to only have to carry one oil with your saw.
Of course I'm trying it on the JUNK first, this is pretty much out of curiosity than trying to prove anything......
The stuff mixes instantly, and has not settled out in a container left sitting all winter, but then again most oils would be OK.
I decided to try it in some equipment that cost me nothing after I did some research and found out it is very similar to Castor oil. So far it works as well in the gas as it does on the bars. A side benefit to only have to carry one oil with your saw.
Of course I'm trying it on the JUNK first, this is pretty much out of curiosity than trying to prove anything......
I tried canola at 32-1 in my beater Lawn Boy when this thread started and it ran fine. All you could smell was the cut grass. I thought I'd run it for a while to see what happens and then talk about it. I'll make a point of using it all summer in the mower. Good job Pioneer, I guess I'm not the only mad scientist here!
John.....
John.....
Nice to see somebody else who trys it BEFORE they draw conclusions. Thats the only way to find out for sure if it works.
Thanks John.
Thanks John.
Another conclusion drawn by observation and not speculation, Canola does not burn off easily.
The attached pictures are of a test done to Canola to see if it can stand some moderately high temps. The first picture is of the gauge sitting in boiling water to verify it's zero, the second is trying to light up the oil at 500 degrees F. At this point is was barely showing the first wisps of something, obviously not enough to light with an open flame. This was done with used cooking oil, the fresh stuff is even better.
For the curious, this is a lead thermometer used in making cast bullets. The oil is actually hot enough to melt Linotype lead. I'm going to have to try some 2-stroke oils next to see how they stack up...........
The attached pictures are of a test done to Canola to see if it can stand some moderately high temps. The first picture is of the gauge sitting in boiling water to verify it's zero, the second is trying to light up the oil at 500 degrees F. At this point is was barely showing the first wisps of something, obviously not enough to light with an open flame. This was done with used cooking oil, the fresh stuff is even better.
For the curious, this is a lead thermometer used in making cast bullets. The oil is actually hot enough to melt Linotype lead. I'm going to have to try some 2-stroke oils next to see how they stack up...........
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Pioneer said:
How's the hydrogen working out for you, Ben? How is this fitting in with chainsaws?, Just curious. Can you share with us a little on electrolysis? You seem to have a concern on input energy vs energy made available, so I would think the energy cost of electrolytic cracking would throw up a big, red flag, aside from the energy to compress the gas and the energy to cool it to way below sub-freezing temperatures. Then the energy to transport it. Then there's the sheer explosiveness of the stuff, like, remember the Hindenberg?bwalker said:
Can you give us more than one word?bwalker said:
Actually, mebbe we should stay on track with vegetable oils for bar lube.
Coool, while at it, sunflower oil also seems to be a viable chainlube oil, or twostroke oil, could you try that too for temperature? It rocks when making french fries btw...Pioneer said:
I just tried sunflower oil on my bike. Yes, that chain won't be stressed like chains on saws, but I reckon it will give just as good rust protection as greasy petroleum oil. (I haven't tried sunflower oil in saws though, I don't know how it oxidate and stuff)Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
You may notice oxidation on your bike chain as it is open to oxygen in the air. It's a thin layer, completely exposed and doesn't enjoy the 'flushing' effect that a chainsaw system does.
Veggie oil as 2-cycle.... I'm not going to pass judgement on that, but at the same time I can't endorse it, simply because I haven't personally tried it. I'll keep an open mind, however. Thanks for the info that it is feasable.
The physical properties of these oils can be looked up in <i>The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics</i>, which is not exactly a handbook. It's more like a small, heavy suitcase. The point at which the heat is high enough for the oil to burst into flame is called the 'flash-point'. I would think the lower flashpoint oils would work best as 2-cycle, but this is an assumption on my part, not a verified fact.
Veggie oil as 2-cycle.... I'm not going to pass judgement on that, but at the same time I can't endorse it, simply because I haven't personally tried it. I'll keep an open mind, however. Thanks for the info that it is feasable.
The physical properties of these oils can be looked up in <i>The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics</i>, which is not exactly a handbook. It's more like a small, heavy suitcase. The point at which the heat is high enough for the oil to burst into flame is called the 'flash-point'. I would think the lower flashpoint oils would work best as 2-cycle, but this is an assumption on my part, not a verified fact.
Tree machine, Tom and Crofter where talking about alternative energy hence the Hydrogen comment. As far as how to produce it. Nuclear fusion reactors of course. The technology already exists to store the stuff safely inside a vehicle.
As far as pure vegi oil for a two cycle goes. Very bad. The flash and end point are way to high for pure veggi oil, there are no anti wear additives in pure vegi oil, the are are no detergents in pure vegi oil(which would be needed in spades with any veggi based oil), the viscosity index is wrong and the viscosity is wrong. Veggi based oil have been tried in the past(castor,rape) and they didnt work so hot. The had excellant film strength but deposist and corrosion protection where a serious issue. Besdies some of todays ester based two cycle oils would likely bio degrade faster than vegi oil.
As far as pure vegi oil for a two cycle goes. Very bad. The flash and end point are way to high for pure veggi oil, there are no anti wear additives in pure vegi oil, the are are no detergents in pure vegi oil(which would be needed in spades with any veggi based oil), the viscosity index is wrong and the viscosity is wrong. Veggi based oil have been tried in the past(castor,rape) and they didnt work so hot. The had excellant film strength but deposist and corrosion protection where a serious issue. Besdies some of todays ester based two cycle oils would likely bio degrade faster than vegi oil.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Biodegradability in 2-cycle oil is sort of a non-issue (it's being combusted). We're not spraying gallons of 2-cycle around in the environment.
Thanks for the input on vegg-not-a-good-sub for 2-cycle. Sounds like you have read stuff on this, as by the sound of things, you probably wouldn't have actually tried it. Can you link us to the material? That contribution would be much appreciated.
What's 'end point'?
Thanks for the input on vegg-not-a-good-sub for 2-cycle. Sounds like you have read stuff on this, as by the sound of things, you probably wouldn't have actually tried it. Can you link us to the material? That contribution would be much appreciated.
What's 'end point'?
End pint is the temp at which the oil totaly combusts. Flash point is the temp at which it begins to give off combustable vapours. I would not be supprised to see the endpoint of a vegatable based oil being as high as 800 degrees.
And biodegradability is a major issue with two cycle oils. especially marine oils as they discharge the exhaust directly into the water. Alot of the oil put into a two cycle gets expelled onto the ground as unburnt HC hence biodegradability is a issue.
I have aread a ton of stuff on rape and castor oils, but AI havent saved any of it. Google it and see what you find. to give you some background castor oil stopped being used for the most part in the 60's. Some two cycles still used it after, and in fact still use it today, but its sorta rare. Maxima, Silkolene, klotz and Blendzall still sell the stuff.
And biodegradability is a major issue with two cycle oils. especially marine oils as they discharge the exhaust directly into the water. Alot of the oil put into a two cycle gets expelled onto the ground as unburnt HC hence biodegradability is a issue.
I have aread a ton of stuff on rape and castor oils, but AI havent saved any of it. Google it and see what you find. to give you some background castor oil stopped being used for the most part in the 60's. Some two cycles still used it after, and in fact still use it today, but its sorta rare. Maxima, Silkolene, klotz and Blendzall still sell the stuff.
