Good to know I'm talking to another working Guy, my whole point on the oil is,(and I know I'm gonna get hit from all sides here), Petro Oil never wears out, it just gets dirty, period. I come from the same camp your from, but after you decide to keep a saw around for a few yrs., its well worth buying bar oil for it instead of replacing the pump just to prove a point.
Veggie oil?
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lego1970
ArboristSite Guru
If I was cutting full time, or had high dollar saws I wouldn't be so relaxed about the use of used motor oil. The other thing is that I normally drop a saw:censored:, run it over:censored:, drop something on it:censored:, or somehow screw it up:censored: long before it dies from old age. I guess that's why I always buy the cheap saws. Take care, Lego.
I recently started using veggie oil; so far, no complaints.
Regarding used motor oil: it is very messy when it leaks, so you should anticipate your trucks, tool crib, and customers lawns to look like a disaster. The biggest reason to use genuine bar oil is because it is so thick and sticky; it adheres to the chain better, thereby requiring less wasted oil.
For those of you who don't think so, petroleum based motor oil DOES wear out. When I installed my waste oil heater in my shop; we did not have enough used oil in the tank to make it fire up. So we primed the pump with a quart of brand new motor oil, despite specific instructions from the manufacturer to use waste oil. After many hours of fruitless attempts to get the damn thing working, it would not ignite and burn. When I finally got the factory serviceman on the phone to help me troubleshoot, he knew exactly what was wrong. The first words out of his mouth were "You primed it with new motor oil, didn't you?"
It turns out that motor oil decomposes somewhat with use, and becomes fuel for waste oil burners. New oil won't do the job, which is well known to anybody with a waste oil burning furnace. I am equally sure that new oil does a better job of lubricating chains than used oil does.
Regarding used motor oil: it is very messy when it leaks, so you should anticipate your trucks, tool crib, and customers lawns to look like a disaster. The biggest reason to use genuine bar oil is because it is so thick and sticky; it adheres to the chain better, thereby requiring less wasted oil.
For those of you who don't think so, petroleum based motor oil DOES wear out. When I installed my waste oil heater in my shop; we did not have enough used oil in the tank to make it fire up. So we primed the pump with a quart of brand new motor oil, despite specific instructions from the manufacturer to use waste oil. After many hours of fruitless attempts to get the damn thing working, it would not ignite and burn. When I finally got the factory serviceman on the phone to help me troubleshoot, he knew exactly what was wrong. The first words out of his mouth were "You primed it with new motor oil, didn't you?"
It turns out that motor oil decomposes somewhat with use, and becomes fuel for waste oil burners. New oil won't do the job, which is well known to anybody with a waste oil burning furnace. I am equally sure that new oil does a better job of lubricating chains than used oil does.
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New Oil is not contaminated with gas or diesel fuel either, drain oil is, send it to a lab and prove me wrong.
fishercat
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'll try to not be abusive here, but that just isn't so. Hydraulic fluid, transmission fluid, even gear oil get hot and decompose, discolor, and otherwise don't lubricate as well as they did.
Sure, fuel contamination helps.
MadMax, I'm not sure what your point is. I am sure that fuel contamination helps used motor oil burn in a waste oil heater more than new oil. That is somewhat obvious.
On the other hand, there is no fuel contamination in hydraulic oil, and it also burns cleaner and better when "used". The new oil isn't as easily ignited as the used oil for a reason: the long carbon chains in new oil break into smaller pieces as it wears out, then it's ignition temperature is reduced as a result. So...Yes! Oil does wear out.
My point as far as engine oil, you nailed it. But, as for hydraulic oil, what part does the microscopic steel shavings from the pump or cylinder or ram or hose or etc.etc., play in the breaking down of the"long carbon chains" ?
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lego1970
ArboristSite Guru
I'm a little lost as to where you guys are at, but even the elements in the air such as oxygen will break down the oil. Add a little heat which acts as a catalyst, and I'm sure the oxygen starts to affect the carbon chains. What that is, I don't know. I lack the understanding of stuff like double bonds, valance shells, and how exactly electrons break off but with just heat and air the oil will change.
SINGLE-JACK
ArboristSite Guru
The American Petroleum Institute and the EPA would have us believe:
"Motor oil does not wear out—it just gets dirty ... " (ref. 1 & 2)
Who would of thought ... ??? :monkey:
However:
"Biodegradable-based lubricants, made from vegetable oils, are emerging as a high-performance environmentally friendly alternative to the more commonly purchased petroleum oil lubricants. Users choose vegetable oil-based lubricants because they perform as well or better than petroleum oils. Additionally, they are made from plants - a renewable resource - are readily biodegradable, low in toxicity, and have a longer life due to the higher viscosity index." (ref. 3)
Reference links:
Ref. 1 - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
Ref. 2 - California Integrated Waste Management Board
Ref. 3 - North Carolina Division of Pollution Prevention and Environmental Assistance
"Motor oil does not wear out—it just gets dirty ... " (ref. 1 & 2)
Who would of thought ... ??? :monkey:
However:
"Biodegradable-based lubricants, made from vegetable oils, are emerging as a high-performance environmentally friendly alternative to the more commonly purchased petroleum oil lubricants. Users choose vegetable oil-based lubricants because they perform as well or better than petroleum oils. Additionally, they are made from plants - a renewable resource - are readily biodegradable, low in toxicity, and have a longer life due to the higher viscosity index." (ref. 3)
Reference links:
Ref. 1 - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
Ref. 2 - California Integrated Waste Management Board
Ref. 3 - North Carolina Division of Pollution Prevention and Environmental Assistance
lego1970
ArboristSite Guru
It will change. Not 100% of the volume will change but there will be some changes to it. Just the 18% oxygen at the very top of the bottle (because I doubt they fill the remainder with nitrogen) will start to oxidize the minute specs of cooper and iron in the oil. Any little moisture that was in the oil (yes during the refining stages I wouldn't be surprised if the oil is washed with water during some stage to rid some other element then dryed off with Hexane, heat or thru seperation) or in the air contains Hydrogen which readily bonds to carbon chains that are not complete. After that you get other side chemical reactions. Then you also get seperation just from the different specific density of the additives they put in. Even the different elements leaching from either a tin can or plastic bottle of oil will leach and affect the oil. I'm talking on a very minute scale but technicaly speaking there is no way in hell that all the molecules in a bottle of motor oil will stay completely the way they are over a given period of time, especially when you throw in heat or vibrate the bottle. I use used motor oil so that should tell people I don't really care, but unused, unopen bottle of motor oil will have changes to it as minute and microscopic as that may be. That's all I was getting at. To say nothing at all will happen to oil if left alone, is complete BS
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Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I must thank you all for your time and effort in bringing to this thread the excellent and fascinating information that has next to nothing to do with this thread. No disrespect, but at least the last 15-20 posts have little to nothing to offer as far as this thread, whose title is "Veggie oil' and specifically, veggie oil used in a chainsaw for the specific purpose of lubricating the bar and chain system.
One thing I did pick out amidst all that was the term 'viscosity index'.
Viscosity Index is a quantifiable, measurable rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Low viscosity index signifies a relatively large change in viscosity with oil temperature, while a high viscosity index shows a relatively small change in viscosity with oil temperature changes, offering consistent viscosity and stable performance throughout the temperature range.
Viscosity is how thick a liquid is at the temperature it is at; for us it affects pourability, pumpability and stress on oiler mechanism components.
Viscosity index is a measure of how much the viscosity of the oil changes over a temperature range.
With regular bar oil, when temps are cold, viscosity increases. The oil gets thick and more resistant to flow; Low viscosity index. That's why many users thin their bar oil with diesel fuel, or switch to a winter formulation, otherwise the oiler has to work harder to pump the thick oil and it takes more time just to get it out of the jug.
With vegetable oil, the viscosity changes very little over the range of temperatures; high viscosity index. This range is from where it would be too cold for the sawyer to work in, all the way up to the maximum heat inside a saw's tank. Once onto the bar, if the bar is hotter than the inside of the tank, the oil will pick up some of that heat and when it it flung off the bar will carry that heat off with it, providing some cooling to the bar, as well as lubrication. This goes for regular petro bar oil as well. It too gets flung off the bar and carries with it the heat that it picked up.
The similarities are that both versions of bar/chain lubricant lubricate well and are stable into the upper temperature ranges. Both fly off the bar and into the environment as evidenced by one tank in=one tank out.
The differences are that the petro bar oil and it's tackifiers stay out there in the environment for extended time, regardless of the fact that it is essentially invisible to our eyes and concern. From the standpoint of good lubrication, both are acceptable. As far as wear on your saw, regular petroleum bar oil needs modification or changeover in cold temps, veggie will go as cold as you can go and as hot as the saw can dish out, without modifying or changing anything. I recommend canola over other vegetable oils for the coldest temps.
One thing I did pick out amidst all that was the term 'viscosity index'.
Viscosity Index is a quantifiable, measurable rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Low viscosity index signifies a relatively large change in viscosity with oil temperature, while a high viscosity index shows a relatively small change in viscosity with oil temperature changes, offering consistent viscosity and stable performance throughout the temperature range.
Viscosity is how thick a liquid is at the temperature it is at; for us it affects pourability, pumpability and stress on oiler mechanism components.
Viscosity index is a measure of how much the viscosity of the oil changes over a temperature range.
With regular bar oil, when temps are cold, viscosity increases. The oil gets thick and more resistant to flow; Low viscosity index. That's why many users thin their bar oil with diesel fuel, or switch to a winter formulation, otherwise the oiler has to work harder to pump the thick oil and it takes more time just to get it out of the jug.
With vegetable oil, the viscosity changes very little over the range of temperatures; high viscosity index. This range is from where it would be too cold for the sawyer to work in, all the way up to the maximum heat inside a saw's tank. Once onto the bar, if the bar is hotter than the inside of the tank, the oil will pick up some of that heat and when it it flung off the bar will carry that heat off with it, providing some cooling to the bar, as well as lubrication. This goes for regular petro bar oil as well. It too gets flung off the bar and carries with it the heat that it picked up.
The similarities are that both versions of bar/chain lubricant lubricate well and are stable into the upper temperature ranges. Both fly off the bar and into the environment as evidenced by one tank in=one tank out.
The differences are that the petro bar oil and it's tackifiers stay out there in the environment for extended time, regardless of the fact that it is essentially invisible to our eyes and concern. From the standpoint of good lubrication, both are acceptable. As far as wear on your saw, regular petroleum bar oil needs modification or changeover in cold temps, veggie will go as cold as you can go and as hot as the saw can dish out, without modifying or changing anything. I recommend canola over other vegetable oils for the coldest temps.
lego1970
ArboristSite Guru
It was for science. Just kidding, I agree. However it's still fun to beat a :deadhorse:
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
The dead horse being the psychological resistance to change, or something to do with bar oil?
lego1970
ArboristSite Guru
Does it matter?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I see the point there.
I'd like to think that more would overcome the psychological resistance to change if the scientific evidence showed it to be a better choice. And I believe there is plenty of evidence to prove it does.
I can appreciate that more than mostlego1970 said:
I'd like to think that more would overcome the psychological resistance to change if the scientific evidence showed it to be a better choice. And I believe there is plenty of evidence to prove it does.
SINGLE-JACK
ArboristSite Guru
Three years & 236 posts since the OP ... frankly, it's impressive we're still talking about oil!!!
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think it's important that we are not mislead to believe that tackified petroleum oil is the only option to lubricate a bar and chain.
For those of us who are daily saw users, who bring this stuff into our homes on our clothes and skin, we should have good information to make good, informed choices.
Treecare is a dangerous business. Our choice of bar oil shouldn't have to be one of our occupational hazards.
I thank all who have taken the time to contribute, even the naysayers.
For those of us who are daily saw users, who bring this stuff into our homes on our clothes and skin, we should have good information to make good, informed choices.
Treecare is a dangerous business. Our choice of bar oil shouldn't have to be one of our occupational hazards.
I thank all who have taken the time to contribute, even the naysayers.
newsawtooth
ArboristSite Operative
This part is interesting to me. Is there any history regarding the introduction of tackifing (sp?) agents? The oil system does not require that lubricant stay in one place as it is added and flung off the bar on every revolution. Is it just a marketing ploy, a ruse to trap those that must cover themselves in bar oil to feel like they are working? Thanks for the info TM, your original observations led me to switch and I feel a little liberated.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I've heard it said that its a ploy to market otherwise unmarketable, low-grade oils. That sort of makes sense. Why would they feed us the high-grade stuff? Why is bar oil cheaper than motor oil? Why does it stink so much worse? You make your own conclusions.
Here are the facts. On modern oilers there is a constant flow of oil from the oil tank directly to the bar, through the bar's oiler hole and into the bar rail groove itself, in direct contact with the driver links Flow increases with increased RPM's. Faster chain spin, faster oil flow. With ANY oil it stays on the bar for at least one revolution and is then displaced by the new incoming oil as well as being flung off each end of the bar (yes, both ends fling).
Now, tack is supposed to keep the oil on the bar longer, but it doesn't really, as evidenced that one tank in = one tank out. Oil does not 'build up' on the bar and chain, once it is gone it is GONE and with this we can say that tack is not doing its intended job. It has flung off into the environment.
Since there is a consistent flow of new, fresh oil coming out into that bar groove, we can say that tack is not even needed in this particular system, which is a 'high-speed, constant infusion bar and chain lubrication system."
High speed is where tack loses it's effectiveness. Tack is designed for low-speed applications and is added to oil to make the oil sticky so it will adhere to chains or other lubricated components that are not constantly infused with new oil or bathed in it, like transmission components. I know tackified oil is used on the giant chain that pulls roller coasters up that first hill. It is slow, the oil is NOT constantly infused and if it weren't tackified the oil would drip off the chain to wherever below, would cause environmental concern and would require more frequent oiling and more oil and therefore more cost to maintain. Tack is good in that case.
In our usage, all sensible evidence points to that tack is not needed. What IS needed is good lubricity and flow characteristics from way below freezing up to the maximum temperature the saw bar can give. The oil just needs to make it around the bar one or twice, do its lubricating job, then go away, cast into the environment or in the sawdust created. Ideally we'd like the oil to stay on the bar so we don't have to use so much of it, but that's just not possible at 10,000 RPM and scraping through wood. Tack can just not possibly do its intended job at these speeds and we have one tank in = one tank out to spell that out more clearly than I can describe.
The new bio oils have tack. Again, marketing and reason to charge premium prices. If there were no tack, it would be straight canola oil and why would you buy saw shop bio bar oil if it were the same as grocery grade? Why would you pay more for it?
Mine is not to tell anyone what to do. If you think tack works on our specific bar and chain lubrication systems, then by all means, keep your blinders on, believe what you want to believe for whatever non-scientific reasoning you're clinging to, and stick with it (no pun intended).
Here are the facts. On modern oilers there is a constant flow of oil from the oil tank directly to the bar, through the bar's oiler hole and into the bar rail groove itself, in direct contact with the driver links Flow increases with increased RPM's. Faster chain spin, faster oil flow. With ANY oil it stays on the bar for at least one revolution and is then displaced by the new incoming oil as well as being flung off each end of the bar (yes, both ends fling).
Now, tack is supposed to keep the oil on the bar longer, but it doesn't really, as evidenced that one tank in = one tank out. Oil does not 'build up' on the bar and chain, once it is gone it is GONE and with this we can say that tack is not doing its intended job. It has flung off into the environment.
Since there is a consistent flow of new, fresh oil coming out into that bar groove, we can say that tack is not even needed in this particular system, which is a 'high-speed, constant infusion bar and chain lubrication system."
High speed is where tack loses it's effectiveness. Tack is designed for low-speed applications and is added to oil to make the oil sticky so it will adhere to chains or other lubricated components that are not constantly infused with new oil or bathed in it, like transmission components. I know tackified oil is used on the giant chain that pulls roller coasters up that first hill. It is slow, the oil is NOT constantly infused and if it weren't tackified the oil would drip off the chain to wherever below, would cause environmental concern and would require more frequent oiling and more oil and therefore more cost to maintain. Tack is good in that case.
In our usage, all sensible evidence points to that tack is not needed. What IS needed is good lubricity and flow characteristics from way below freezing up to the maximum temperature the saw bar can give. The oil just needs to make it around the bar one or twice, do its lubricating job, then go away, cast into the environment or in the sawdust created. Ideally we'd like the oil to stay on the bar so we don't have to use so much of it, but that's just not possible at 10,000 RPM and scraping through wood. Tack can just not possibly do its intended job at these speeds and we have one tank in = one tank out to spell that out more clearly than I can describe.
The new bio oils have tack. Again, marketing and reason to charge premium prices. If there were no tack, it would be straight canola oil and why would you buy saw shop bio bar oil if it were the same as grocery grade? Why would you pay more for it?
Mine is not to tell anyone what to do. If you think tack works on our specific bar and chain lubrication systems, then by all means, keep your blinders on, believe what you want to believe for whatever non-scientific reasoning you're clinging to, and stick with it (no pun intended).
I think it is sufficient to say that Veggie oil is cheaper and better for the environment. Both renewable and less toxic.
Add to that the fact that it seems to do as good a job of lubricating the bar, and I am a convert!
Add to that the fact that it seems to do as good a job of lubricating the bar, and I am a convert!
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