Veggie oil?

[Tree Machine]

I'm not here trying to make converts out of anyone. Accurate, scientifically based information, and then you can make your own conclusions.

 

[Greenstar]

I agree with almost everything you say.
And I am a convert. I really dont want to use any petro anymore. I hate the stuff. The reason I bought a 1995 Dodge Cummins Diesel over 16 months ago which has been sitting since is because in about two months I am finally going to convert that into my new chip truck. And guess what its going to run on!!!

No not beer! But close

I have read all your argument about tack as best I could follow, and you do make some good points.
There is no denying that the oiler continually pumps out more or less the same volume of oil regardless of the type.

I think the questions are more how much of it gets flung off at the first turn, what percentage is still there doing its job (and how effectively) on the underside of the bar after that first turn, and how much of it gets flung off or makes it to the second turn.
Thicker oil probably stays on a little longer.
Do I care or think it makes enough of a difference to pay the higher price dollar wise, environmental wise, or healthwise, NO... because I dont think it needs THAT MUCH tack and really makes much difference, especially if you're a pro who is running sharp saws and knows how to cut, like you said before!

My only worry is still my oiler problem at the moment however.... :greenchainsaw:

 

[Tree Machine]

I agree with almost everything you say.

What if what I say is being passed along from what someone else said?

The point here being information should be looked at based on it's own merit, not on what some nobody says.


I believe many of us behave in 'herd mentality', I'm as guilty as the next on many levels and this statement is not meant as an insult to anyone in any way. I just think we as individuals should assess our beliefs beyond just what the guy before us said.

Tack has been one of those things. We know what it's intended purpose is, and we know it's a valuable additive in many lubrication systems. But I feel we have been led to believe its a valuable additive for our lubrication system. But is it? or have we just gone along with the practice and never questioned it? Do we perpetuate its use simply because ' it's what we believe '?

Here's a couple things to try. If you are using veggie oil, open your side case, look in and around the area. Is there oil and sawdust in there? Of course there is, evidence that the oil does get around the tip without being flung off entirely. We know this because some gets flung off, at the opposite end, inside the drive sprocket area, just like tackified petro.

Next, (and this is for both versions of oil users) point the saw bar tip at a light-colored surface, gun the saw, hold it steady at full throttle for 10 seconds. Do you see a line of oil deposit? Yes, both petro tackified, regular motor oil non-tackified and veggie oil non-tackified. You could get real experimental here and use identical saws, identical RPMs and identical time onto say, a coffee filter, and then weigh them to see a difference, but in the end you still have one tank in=one tank out. You could then say one drop in = one drop out, however you cut it.

Then ask yourself a purely rhetorical question..... if there is constant infusion of lubricant onto the bar, is it necessary to (potentially) keep that oil on the bar longer? Is it at all necessary?

What we do know, unequivocably and without a doubt, is that only a thin layer of good lubricant is needed between two smooth metal surfaces.... not a thick layer & not a sticky layer. A consistent, thin layer, with good lubricity that will stand up to the frictional forces of light cutting using smaller bars and chains or heavy, forced, pedal-to-the-metal cutting with big saws and big bars.

 

[pdqdl]

I am on your side, TM, but there is one aspect that I don't think has been addressed.

Many professional saws have adjustable feed rates on their oilers. At least in theory, a stickier oil will allow you to select a reduced oiler setting.

Myself, I have gone to Veggie oil in 5 gallon jugs from Sams Club. I can't justify spending twice as much for a questionable gain by using "bar oil".

 

[Tree Machine]

First, it's not my side. I'm taking a scientific standpoint, and that is to try and not bring personal bias into the 'experiment'. If I am taken out of the equation then others shouldn't be influenced by me, personally. For instance, you say you're on my side. I get PM's that people think I'm full of horse$heet. I'm fine either way, this is not a popularity contest.

I prefer that everyone take a neutral stance to start with. Weigh the differences. Shed any bias, any former beliefs, any reasonings they have for going one way or the other. Let the information stand on its own merit, choose based on your personal evaluation of the results.

My entry was based on my wife's asthma. We were taking her regularly to the doctor. They'd prescribe a new inhaler. Testing for what she was allergic to. I had to build an outdoor shower and not bring sawdust in. But I had to bring my grungy clothes in to do laundry. She was reading in bed and said "Do you smell that?" "No, what" "That smell...." and she got up and started smelling around. She ended up downstairs and my chainsaw pants were the culprit. When I got down there, yea, it reeked and she went into an asthma thing. We aired things out. Days later she could deetect the scent in my work shirts after they had been washed. I couldn't smell anything of the sort, but her senses are better than mine in everything but high-altitude balance and coordination. She asked me to use a different oil. I told her bar oil is bar oil. "Well what about vegetable oil?" and that's how it started. Honestly, I was reluctant at first because I was carrying this blind, unchallenged belief that I'd gotten from the guys before me.

 

[Tree Machine]

I am on your side, TM, but there is one aspect that I don't think has been addressed.

Many professional saws have adjustable feed rates on their oilers. At least in theory, a stickier oil will allow you to select a reduced oiler setting.

I ask if this is an assumed theory, or is there a scientific basis for the theory?

If vegetable oil is a better lubricant based on it's viscosity index and pure lubricity, then you should, in theory, need less. Since the oiler is pumping out an excess, you should be able to turn your oiler down. I don't personally, I run it at factory spec, but my feeling is that I'm applying an excess. Here's why I think that.


On my Echo power pruner (chainsaw on a stick) I found the bar end exceedingly heavy at full reach and after extended use my back would be feeling it bad. It seemed to be more heavy when the oil tank was full and clearly this was the case. Between the weight of the oil reservoir and the oil itself, when full, was both bulky and weighty. To make my life easier I decided to remove the oiler and tank altogether and hand oil from a squirt bottle that I would keep nearby. No longer was the bar being continuously oiled. It was now intermittent and how often it would get oiled would depend entirely on when I decided to oil it.

I paid really close attention, and went by intuitive feel. Over time (that meaning multiple seasons) I find that unless I'm running it screaming, I don't need to oil more than once every couple minutes. I found this remarkable, certainly not what I would have thought (assumed).

This led me to realize that this particular saw did not necessarily need continuous oiling. One could extrapolate this result to other saws, but I won't. That's a stretch, and one saw is different than another, but in reality, we're not talking about the saw, are we. We're talking about the bar and chain.

So we could say that all bars are different, but are they? Different bars may be different lengths, different gauges, maybe even made of different materials, but the difference that means something is RPM's the chain is running at and how much pressure you're putting it under while in use. Otherwise, all bars are pretty much the same, same general shape, same form, same function, oil given to the rail channel in the same way.

How much oil that is needed varies, even though it is applied continuously. The continuous application increases as the RPM's increase. Q? Is oil spun off more as a factor of RPMs or of the fact that more oil being put on the bar is displacing the oil already on the bar? My guess is a combo of both, but my gut feeling is most of the time the bar is being over-oiled.

Better too much than not enough. I would be willing to bet money that I could turn the oiler down to HALF its present output and all my saws would do just fine. That's just my feeling, though. Since the oil I'm throwing off my bar is non-toxic to the environment and the cost savings isn't enough to make a significant difference to me, I'll leave it as it is.

 

[StihlyinEly]

This has been an excellent read. I'm down to the last inch or so of bar oil in my gallon jug and have been thinking about converting to canola. I posted in the chainsaw forum and was redirected here.

Thanks for the perspectives.

Canola, here I come!

 

[LumberJeff]

Great thread

I was looking into buying bulk chain oil and found 55 gallon drums of canola. unsure of whether this would work i decided to check what the arborist forums think. now i'm gonna try it tomorrow.

:yourock:

 

[fishercat]

tell ya what,

when the goody goody liberals of New York City quit sending barge loads of trash out into
the ocean and dumping it over board,I'll worry about the few drops of petro coming of my chain.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Garbage doesn't bide with politics. Everyone makes garbage, even non-political people.

There are plenty of good reasons to use veggie oil. This is a very old thread that I followed and participated in so I have a good idea of what is in the thread. If a person had an open mind and wanted to get an understanding of veggie oil this would be a good place to start learning.

No one is forcing anyone to change.

 

[Tree Machine]

I don't want to change anyone. Hopefully you adopt new information, shed old, outdated beliefs and do what works. If there's gonna be any changing, it'll be in trying to improve my own self.


Sometimes it's more about wanting to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem, you make the individual choice. I'm willing to do a little more to help balance for those who won't. That's all I can do, that, and to genuinely care that what information I share is not bunk.

After 10 years of veggie oil use, nothing has changed, still using it, still doing fine.