Wedge Stacking?

[northmanlogging]

the double taper 10" is nice cause it has a very narrow tip on it, hence I tend to buy a lot of em... they also have fatter ass one em so you get a little more lift then other 10" wedges I keep one on hand just for the event of a sit back or for when bucking goes wrong, other wise K+H red heads.

Also the double tapers are more prone to spitting out, regardless of whether you are stacking or not.

 

[137cc]

Thanks, hopefully that will save me from being accused of not giving any logical reasons, if it's not logical enough then we are operating on different levels or I have a hemispheric understanding gap.
Thansk

You still haven't given a logical reason, btw you saying it's safer doesn't count as a logical reason.

 

[137cc]

After aftre all this you still haven't asked your trainers why this method is better or safer, you're just wingeing to your like minded group with similar attitudes to different methods, man or girl up & tell them what your really think about their methods or tell them to shove their job if you really think it's that dangerous or demeaning to you. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one here that's done that!
Thanski

Like I said earlier, you get fired if you question them. And I need the money at the moment. Trust me I've asked the trainers about nearly everything they say. And everytime they will tell you it's safer without actually defending their technique.

 

[KiwiBro]

The moment one fails, they'll proclaim their roping instructions a fully justified success, unless it goes sideways. Too funny.

 

[Bwildered]

Like I said earlier, you get fired if you question them. And I need the money at the moment. Trust me I've asked the trainers about nearly everything they say. And everytime they will tell you it's safer without actually defending their technique.

thats a terrible situation you're in, but you must be in their good books because they haven't given you the boot for asking questions so far, maybe a different tact could be for you to say to them why their technique is better, but give them some really far fetched ridiculous reason, any trainer would want to set you straight with their reasons & explainations.
Fanks

 

[bitzer]

I don't use wedges for bucking. Occasionally to free a saw, but that's it on horizontal trees. Fatigue, time, and money are my reasons why this technique is foolish. Unnecessary work when perfectly good solutions are already available. Wood chips work well to keep wedges together if that's really the problem. One wedge should always be kept next to your stack. Simplicity. A stack of wedges usually only spits out when the tree moves forward as you are hitting them, taking the pressure off and allowing them to spit. Keeping your mind on what your doing (common sense) and not trying to be in a hurry is really the common denominator. If a guy can't hit a stack of wedges without them spitting out regularly, why would they want him to further compromise the tree and himself (fatigue) in the name of safety? Again simplicity. Three cuts, wedge, tip, done.

 

[windthrown]

As for wedges, I use smooth surface orange ones of variable length. I like the smooth ones because they are stackable and they do not get stuck in the wood as much. They wear pretty fast though. I usually find a concrete or asphault road surface to grind off the plastic divots and to rough up the smooth surfaces a tad when they are new so they hold better. If needed I have also made them on the spot out of wood, ala my picture above. I also have some metal ones for splitting firewood with my 8 pound maul.

I also made some nice wedges out of white oak on my table saw for leveling my dubba wyde. Half the original leveling/foundation wedges here were rotted out when I bought this place. So I replaced the rotten ones a few years ago with the white oak ones. Two per speed block stack. I may make up a full set of leveling wedges and replace them all using black locust. That stuff does not rot out or warp at all.

 

[treeslayer2003]

you got white oak and black locust on that side?

 

[JRoland]

Like I said earlier, you get fired if you question them. And I need the money at the moment. Trust me I've asked the trainers about nearly everything they say. And everytime they will tell you it's safer without actually defending their technique.

The first day we were there, after the first two rules (1. No drugs and alcohol 2. Ropes in all trees over 10') the main safety point was that no steel core flip lines allowed on this job site. It was asked " what if the tree is outside the MAD ( minimum approach distance)". The answer was " no steel core flip lines allowed on this job."
To the point that with all this talk of remove able offenses, etc. I went home and took my steel core flip line out of my job box and left it in the garage.
Fast forward to this mornings safety meeting, and the trainer/safety officer asks when can we use a steel core flip line?
We all chime in "never on this job site!"
Then they proceed to say that steel core is ok, if the tree or any portion of the tree is not in the MAD.
Then it gets repeated in Spanish, then we head out to work.

I'm along the lines of what 137cc says though, it's good money and I'm down to do whatever....2 days of rain coming then 5 days of sunshine!

 

[northmanlogging]

Black locust was planted by some of the pioneers and grows sorta wild up this way, not real common, and not a marketable timber. Pretty much the only chance I get to cut em for arboristy stuff, and I try to avoid most of that these days... try...

Black oak or gerry oaks are more common farther south down by Olympia and points farther south, the closer you get to oregon the bigger and healthier they get. Maybe some white oak too? not sure there.

 

[northmanlogging]

The first day we were there, after the first two rules (1. No drugs and alcohol 2. Ropes in all trees over 10') the main safety point was that no steel core flip lines allowed on this job site. It was asked " what if the tree is outside the MAD ( minimum approach distance)". The answer was " no steel core flip lines allowed on this job."
To the point that with all this talk of remove able offenses, etc. I went home and took my steel core flip line out of my job box and left it in the garage.
Fast forward to this mornings safety meeting, and the trainer/safety officer asks when can we use a steel core flip line?
We all chime in "never on this job site!"
Then they proceed to say that steel core is ok, if the tree or any portion of the tree is not in the MAD.
Then it gets repeated in Spanish, then we head out to work.

I'm along the lines of what 137cc says though, it's good money and I'm down to do whatever....2 days of rain coming then 5 days of sunshine!

Sounds like a fun crew to work for... As much as I think what they are doing is stupid they is the boss and the boss signs the checks.

I get the no steel core thing around power lines. Electricity is all fine and good until someone lets the smoke out of the lines... then things get kinda twitchy.

 

[JRoland]

Also, thinking of it, as many different personalities and egos as there are in tree work this job would be nuts with as many people as are there if they DIDN'T have a whole grip of rules to play by and a way that they wanted all the trees to be cut.
All the way down to how many wedges and what kind you need to have and how they want you to put them in.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yeah I get that, from the sounds of it there is a whole herd of folks working on it.

So having a few rules in place is generally a good thing, unless those rules are ass nine, then well they are just rules to be broken.

The part that I know would have gotten me tramped is the do it our way or else bit... wrong is wrong no amount of threatening or boasting changes it, when someone, anyone gets called on a ******** deal they should adult up and admit it rather then firing a dude over it... I've been fired several times... but I can still count to 20 before getting a scratch pad and pencil.

 

[JRoland]

Yes there are a grip of people there.
For the talk I've heard of " removeable" offenses, the three crews that I've heard about getting sent down the road were pretty flagrant though.
Climbing a tree in the MAD with no rescue climber or rescue climber gear, falling a tree with no line in it with a humboldt cut, cutting the hinge and hitting the cross arm( heard that one almost shut the whole show down) and pulling a 130' tree using mechanical advantage, from 100' away.

All reasonable reasons to not have those crews around in my opinion.

 

[137cc]

Yes there are a grip of people there.
For the talk I've heard of " removeable" offenses, the three crews that I've heard about getting sent down the road were pretty flagrant though.
Climbing a tree in the MAD with no rescue climber or rescue climber gear, falling a tree with no line in it with a humboldt cut, cutting the hinge and hitting the cross arm( heard that one almost shut the whole show down) and pulling a 130' tree using mechanical advantage, from 100' away.

All reasonable reasons to not have those crews around in my opinion.

Yeah all that happened, but plenty more have been let go that they haven't told you about. Don't bring up any pay issues, more than a few got let go complaining about how California labor laws were being broken.

Also, they were signing people on as qualified fellers who showed up with a MS 250 and an 18" bar. When the NATS guys told us that a Humboldt was an unsafe cut, I realized that I had absolute ******* for bosses. They also told me that my husky 390xp w/36" bar was too big of a saw, and that I shouldn't run it all day or I would get too tired.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yeah all that happened, but plenty more have been let go that they haven't told you about. Don't bring up any pay issues, more than a few got let go complaining about how California labor laws were being broken.

Also, they were signing people on as qualified fellers who showed up with a MS 250 and an 18" bar. When the NATS guys told us that a Humboldt was an unsafe cut, I realized that I had absolute ******* for bosses. They also told me that my husky 390xp w/36" bar was too big of a saw, and that I shouldn't run it all day or I would get too tired.

Well if labor laws are being broken, don't bother talking to the bosses just call L+I, labor laws are there for a reason.

As far as a massive Husky yeah I'd have to agree, all that time spent trying to start it would wear a guy out

 

[treeslayer2003]

a 390 is to big??????wtf i guess if i showed up with a 660 full wrap and 36" i am what? over or under qualified? i didn't know you guys on the west coast had to hear this crap.....i'm used to it and just say y'all better get outta the way lol.

 

[Michaelmj11]

No no no no non no no... you are supposed to read the official OSHA approved book that came with the saw, in Spanish, and start the saw with the saw on the ground, your right foot jammed into the back handle, you bent over to start the saw so you are completely off balance on your left knee leaning into the bar, and start the saw from a very weak right arm and wrist position to promote injury. Never mind that the saws are designed by the engineers to be drop started, that the guys at all the saw shops around here drop start saws, and every logger, tree butcher and faller that I know drop starts their saws, except when an insurance or OSHA agent is within eyesight. Or if you are being certified, doing state or federal land work, or some company douche bag from the main office is hanging around in the field observing things.

I like finding a nice stump or log to set the saw in, then use the right foot method, hurts my hands less, but I have a serious family history of arthritis, and inherited my mom's spidery hands not my dad's sausages. .....

Well you don't stack wedges without another wedge making room. And yes they sometimes do pop out, but not with any king of bone smashing force, maybe a bruise, but bruises we're used too. When they do pop out there is the other set of wedges already tightened up, they really only pop out when getting started.

Bore cutting is inherently dangerous, anytime you use the tip you risk a kick back, kick backs can maim or kill, so how the **** is that safer?

Not to mention boring into it you don't really know how far you've gone so you could be cutting away the all important hinge wood without even knowing it. or worse you haven't gone deep enough and the wedges will stall out and you spend an hour trying to move a tree with wedges that can't go anywhere.

Also when exactly are you supposed to start this stacking, cause I'd like to see these yahoos try and bore under a started wedge, or better yet get 2 going and make a third hole. I carry extra bars in the Crummy, and extra saws, but I don't carry that many of them.

The way I was show was:
1. Face cut
2. Bore cut to make the hinge.
3. Bore cut to make spots for each of the wedges
4. Insert and snug wedges (so when you cut the rest of the tree it is then on the hinge and wedges)
5. Cut the wood remaining between hinge creating bore cut, and your top wedge bore cut. Do this on both sides of the tree....
6. Drive wedges.

why is it, we always see these examples used on pecker poles? if its so great, why don't we see pics of it on big stems?

Amem, they always train on the easy ones and say "You'll have to use a different technique on leaners with a canopy." but neglect to demonstrate that for you, thus making a person have to get on forums like this, to Learn How It's Done.

SSD=Swedish Stump Dance, GOL is Game of Logging, game of logging is a course folks are sometimes "required" to take in parts of the US in order to fall trees, SSD is an insult to GOL, because GOL involves a great deal of dancing around a stump in circles from one side to the other, and was "invented" in Sweden.



Plastic isn't much good for lifting how? And like I said before you back up stacked wedges with another wedge or another stack of wedges, sometimes a whole box of stacked wedges.
View attachment 478484

Dont forget to mention the jack

Get to it on a good sized back leaner and post plenty of pictures please.

So does any one have any pictures of any method for dealing with a back leaner...... that does NOT involve chain/cable/rope or Jacks?

Or is the method for dealing with a leaner to ..... stop being a gov. whipped lackey and use ropes/cable/jacks?

So removing more wood than necessary in the back cut of a tree is ok, thereby setting yourself up for more work and more material to add? Its time consuming and pointless. I wedge trees every day with no problem. If i know its going go need more than a double stack and it has to go one way then it gets jacked. The bore cuts and how deep they are is not the issue. Further compromising a tree when it is not necessary is futile. The tree will wedge MUCH harder when the wedges are in contact with wood instead of another wedge. They have to squeeze into that kerf you made until you drive them in far enough to break the wood away from the sides. Plastic wedges are meant for lifting trees, not breaking wood. I know ur aussie hardwoods are very soecial and can not be tamed, but here in the timid north we swing or wedge our trees with the help of gravity in a expediant manner. Don't worry, i will give you new reasons every day if you like. Whats your name by the way? I like to know who i'm debating with. I think we've arrived at that station eh mate?

The way I saw lectured/"taught" was facecut, straight bar width bore cut bring the hinge (half way on each side for "bigger" trees), then make the bore cuts in the back, then stick them 3 wedges (or more) in, then finish cutting "the trigger" the rest of the wood remaining between hinge and wedges.

And I agree SSD is a good name for it. Now, I WAS shown/taught this for working in residential areas, no clue if the training would have been different if the only things to crush were yourself and Bambi

 

[Michaelmj11]

I bore all the time, its just not something I use first, because its dangerous. Also the part you seem to be forgetting is that your talking to PRODUCTION cutters here, some more then others yes. Folks that hand cut professionally don't have time or energy to **** about with ****** methods and half baked ideas, we use what works and generally can see from 5 feet away what works and what does not.

Keep in mind the same ass hats that are demanding the OP use this method are also demanding and trying to force a rule change to require EVERYONE to rope a tree bigger then most Christmas/Yule trees. Its ****ing moronic peroid.

Yah, like I said about residential areas. I think the method described by the OP is not ..... rather Should not be applied production cutting.

Some mongrel days I might wedge 50% of the trees I fall & I only carry one alloy wedge, anything that needs anymore I'll push it over with the big tracked wedge or pull it over with the winch on the other end, or fall anything of value & size in its path & send it where the lean will let it go. I don't use plastic wedges in the bush as they are less than useless, but have found them really handy when I hang a solid core door getting it to the right height as they are nice & slippery.
Ta

It's that whole:

"anything that needs anymore I'll push it over with the big tracked wedge or pull it over with the winch on the other end, or fall anything of value & size in its path & send it where the lean will let it go"

That the agency types don't get, it is like..... "what do you mean you are 75 miles from the nearest emergency care!?! Isn't that against one of our OSHA policies? If it isn't, then we need to make it one!"

The point you seam to be missing is that boring under your back cut, only removes material you need to lift the tree, causing you to use more wedge, 3 cuts is equal to about one wedge in thickness, so now you have used three wedges where 2 could have done it, and probably broke one in the process. but since you can't drive them deep enough, now you have to add a forth... and where exactly is that going to go? ya just going to bore under those three wedges and stuff another one in there? I think not, in fact I know yer not cause I understand physics. meanwhile said tree is crippled hanging on to whatever hold wood is left, just waiting for the next strong breeze to send it wherever it wants to go.

Also if you can't judge the lean of a tree be it crown weight, lean, limb, head, belly, whatever and you've been cutting for more then 3 weeks, hang it up before you get killed.

Are they (them, the gov, the men in black) really trying to make everyone use this method for leaners, or is this thread trying to apply a method to a situation it was never intended for? (I honestly am curious about the method/situation question).

Are they making you use the technique on every tree? That seems pretty ridiculous if they are...

I use the technique on trees with a heavy back lean and it works well. Usually the tree would also have a rope in it with a 5:1 on the other end.

The wood between wedges does break out and lift. I can't say that I have used it on a tree over 36" in diameter since I haven't cut anything bigger than that in a few years but it does work well on smaller trees. Wedge stacking on smaller diameter trees can be challenging with a heavy back lean and this is a great way to do it.

Ok, finally someone with experience using this method on a leaner. How many wedges/bore cuts did you make for over coming the lean, and when in the felling process did you make the cuts?

Yep every tree, but hey nearly everything gol is ridiculous. Basically gol is an over-engineered way to fell small trees. 36" is average timber over here on the left coast. It's not that bore stacking wedges won't work, it just doesn't work very well. It takes a lot of extra force to break the wood between the vertical stacked bores. Why you would add extra resistance to a lifting wedge beyond retarded.

Basically a rope shouldn't be an excuse for garbage methods.

It would make more sense for the gov to require a series of thicker wedges, than to use the method the OP brought up. Say carry 2-10" (or 12") then a 12" that is twice as thick, and one that is three times as thick. 4 wedges total, and equalling the height of 7.... seems straight forward to me... and hey, the physics will back it up =)

Why not come on out to my part of the country and demonstrate some of your ideas? I can get you onto a real logging job for a day or two and you can show some of the production fallers your technique.
We'll take video. Lots of video. I won't even tell the crew what your game is. I'll let them decide for themselves.
Bring your own boots and PPE. We can provide you with a saw and the rest of the tools.

Ummmm, was this open ended, or do I need to act like a knucklehead to get an invite?

till you cut with jacks daily or come play in the big long wood you have no where to talk.

SEE I knew! You guys were using a lot of jacks..... you just don't post you opposing methods much, just simply state "the OPs method stinks, the old way has worked and still does".... just not WHAT the "old way" is exactly...........

 

[FSburt]

Like was said in numerous posts above I usually only use that method of wedging to lift a set back tree up to get some started in the original kerf if a wedge has been initially started. Works well every time I have used it. Can see the reasoning in the first pic but again this GOL stuff is always pushed to be applied on everything and I for one use a lot of techniques I have been fortunate to have been taught over the years. My take is they have to simplify this so much now because the overall skill level of saw operators is dropping so much since the woods industry slowed down. We are getting the same thing in the Govt cutting side too because no one gets out and makes the effort to cut anymore.