What is a cord

[mountainguyed67]

apparently some call that a facecord,

Here, more than half use “cord” and fractions of. Nobody uses “face cord”.

Farmers sell nut and fruit wood by the bin/box, and don’t even give measurements. I also see pickup load, and pallet.

Here’s a farmer that offers “bin”, but also cord or fractions of.
https://fresno.craigslist.org/for/d/fresno-almond-firewood/7421605224.html

 

[turnkey4099]

I never stacked firewood before selling it. Way more work than it was worth. I knew roughly how much a cord was thrown in the truck and they got 10-20% over that. Took less time and effort to give the customer extra wood than to stack the wood to measure precisely. Told them if they got it stacked and it was shy to call me and I'd happily bring the balance. Never had a single person come up short.

I only sell willow - needs a full year to season so I stack to get lots of air going through. I also have somewhere around 50 cord of black locust neatly stacked but not in one cord ricks.

 

[Bearcreek]

I only sell willow - needs a full year to season so I stack to get lots of air going through. I also have somewhere around 50 cord of black locust neatly stacked but not in one cord ricks.

All depends on your target market and customer base. If the customer is willing to pay enough extra for well seasoned wood to make the time spent stacking worthwhile, then it makes sense to do it. If they aren't, it doesn't.

I know, personally, if I was a firewood customer for some reason (like I got injured or disabled in some way and couldn't process my own) I wouldn't pay extra for seasoned wood. I'd buy it far enough ahead of time to stack it and let it season at my place.

 

[SS396driver]

Not because of drying . A 2x4 starts out at 2x4 inches and if you buy rough cut its 2x4 inches. Finished lumber starts as 2x4 then is planed to its final dimension of 1 1/2x3 1/2 .

No way a 2x4 will shrink 1/2 .

 

[Bearcreek]

I love the carrot equivalent of cordwood! My experience with the real thing is that it is hard to tell if there is any difference between rounds and them split. I never got this scientific, but I do think random stacks hold more per volume unsplit than when you split them. I don't have proof but have that gut feel. Maybe you just pile it higher off a splitter conveyor??
Interestingly, was just discussing with my BIL an older time article that stated the right way to make fire wood is to cut enough wood for next year into a stack. Split that stack into large splits and restack them as you go. Then resplit them into proper sized pieces and restack for the rest of the summer.
I suspect that is based on splitting by hand an hour or so every night, making plenty of work for the year, but assuring some sort of wood being always readily available.
In theory if the wood doesn't expand much, all this restacking is possible with minimal real-estate waste...

So if I understand you right, this article was saying you should be stacking the same wood three different times? Sounds like somebody had too much time on their hands.

 

[Bearcreek]

Not because of drying . A 2x4 starts out at 2x4 inches and if you buy rough cut its 2x4 inches. Finished lumber starts as 2x4 then is planed to its final dimension of 1 1/2x3 1/2 .

No way a 2x4 will shrink 1/2 .

I know. That's exactly what I said in post #122. How much a piece of wood will shrink varies widely depending on a variety of factors, the main three being species, heartwood vs sapwood, and tightness of the growth rings.

 

[Real1shepherd]

Interesting discussion. I was in the firewood business in the 70's. The only way to get a full cord in a full size pickup is with racks and you have to stack splits that way, front to back and not rounds. You go just over the top height of the cab to do it. That's the way the old timers had been doing it forever. Use a trailer with racks to handle more.

But every time you handle the wood you loose money. Best case scenario is that you can dump a pile of wood at the buyers place and he stacks it. I find that most people today have no idea what a real cord looks like because they're used to buying fractions of a cord and they have been habitually cheated anyway by unscrupulous sellers.

And we always delivered extra for what we called settle-age. As wood drys out it settles in a tightly made stack of splits. If you're stacking for customers, you need to charge an hourly rate for that. Seniors will try to get you to throw in the cost of that. Some formally nice old lady will suddenly turn into a Arab trader. It's up to you if you wanna give them that or not.

As far as trying to figure out how much wood will settle over time to become a 'true' cord, that's an absurd expectation on the seller.......and the reason we always sold a little extra to allow for settle-age. The 'extra' is not going to sink your business and you'll gain a reputation for doing that. When people think they are getting a little more from a seller than the rest of the dealers, they will become loyal to you......usually.

Kevin

 

[turnkey4099]

Not because of drying . A 2x4 starts out at 2x4 inches and if you buy rough cut its 2x4 inches. Finished lumber starts as 2x4 then is planed to its final dimension of 1 1/2x3 1/2 .

No way a 2x4 will shrink 1/2 .

I think they have now reduced it to 1 7/16 x 3 7/16

 

[mountainguyed67]

Not because of drying . A 2x4 starts out at 2x4 inches and if you buy rough cut its 2x4 inches. Finished lumber starts as 2x4 then is planed to its final dimension

This is the way I understand it as well.

 

[mountainguyed67]

If you're stacking for customers, you need to charge an hourly rate for that.

We had people upset about having to move the wood around back and stack it, and would say that’s a LOT of work. We would think how clueless they are about the whole process, and usually decline to do it. We did it for a couple customers that asked nicely and offered to pay more. We didn’t do it for the whiners that didn’t offer any money to do it. We could have offered to do it for more money in those cases, but didn’t.

 

[Real1shepherd]

We had people upset about having to move the wood around back and stack it, and would say that’s a LOT of work. We would think how clueless they are about the whole process, and usually decline to do it. We did it for a couple customers that asked nicely and offered to pay more. We didn’t do it for the whiners that didn’t offer any money to do it. We could have offered to do it for more money in those cases, but didn’t.

In cases like that you almost have to 'rule' the situation. You tell them how it's gonna be. If they argue with you about past deliveries from other dealers, you just tell them this is the way I do it for all my customers. You'll never please the whiners, but you set precedent for your business model.

Generally, whiners and complainers will either keep 'playing the field' every yr and/or settle down to your rules. If you let your customers make the rules, you'll be stacking wood free or almost free by the time you have to fit it all in some crazy place they designate that you can't get close to. A lot of my competitors would refuse to stack for that very reason.

People are clueless. I'm a fencing contractor and often I have to demolish a fence to replace it with new. Many customers think that effort is going to be 'thrown in". And when I say it's not, they want a bid on it. Then I have to explain to them I have no idea how the fence was built underground and how much concrete is in the ground etc. Further, I have to add in dump fees and my time to take all their junk to the dump....or stack in their yard for resale. Their eyes are fluttering at this point. I offer to demo at an hourly rate until it's done....period. I'll loose a few jobs over that, but it's OK because they're trying to screw an honest guy anyway.

I also used to rototill yards in the spring. You think that would be simple and trouble free. Quite the opposite! We have rocky soil here and often with what we call 'baby head boulders'. Most people know the kind of soil they have, especially if they garden. I would have a set of questions I asked, politely, before I would come out. One woman said to me, "It sounds like an inquisition!" I said no, just trying to keep from breaking my tines in your yard, so you don't have to pay for tines too. Some will have rented a rototiller from the rental yard beforehand and tried to till through roots and rocks. They will neglect to tell me that if I don't ask. By magical voodoo powers my machine is supposed to go through rocks and roots. Again YOU make the rules or your customers will rule you and you'll regret it. Let the younger guys that think they can do anything, take on the kook customers....they'll shortly be out of business or move on.

Kevin

 

[Bearcreek]

We had people upset about having to move the wood around back and stack it, and would say that’s a LOT of work. We would think how clueless they are about the whole process, and usually decline to do it. We did it for a couple customers that asked nicely and offered to pay more. We didn’t do it for the whiners that didn’t offer any money to do it. We could have offered to do it for more money in those cases, but didn’t.

Many people don't seem to understand that the wood itself is only a small part of what they're paying for when they buy split firewood. Most of the cost is labor and materials/equipment to make that tree into that firewood. The more labor is put into that wood, the more it should cost. Quite simple really (just like the definition of a cord) but it's surprising how many don't seem to get it.

 

[Real1shepherd]

Many people don't seem to understand that the wood itself is only a small part of what they're paying for when they buy split firewood. Most of the cost is labor and materials/equipment to make that tree into that firewood. The more labor is put into that wood, the more it should cost. Quite simple really (just like the definition of a cord) but it's surprising how many don't seem to get it.

Ya....you cannot make them understand either....most of them. That's what I refer to as the 'eye fluttering moment';when you see through their eyes that their brain computer is not processing properly.

It's like leaving tools on a job and the landowner keeps the tools. They think they 'paid for them' by the price you charged, when in reality, it's simply stealing.

Kevin

 

[TRTermite]

This is the way I understand it as well.

The history of nominal dimension lumber needs to be remembered. Thick kerfed circle blades for resaw work, verse the band resaw of today with can make the difference in overage (Money wise) for a sawmill. And warpage, cupping as well as thick thin cutting add to the "Shrinkage and what about cleaning up the "ROUGH CUT" finish of a board,, Takes less planing/sanding to clean up witness marks on bandsawn lumber. Then you have Doyles rule to scale a log for board feet in a log that accounts for sawdust and the board with a standard (at the time) of a 8/9 gauge blade with a 9/32" kerf and now bandsaws are closer to .035" to .045" so certainly an overage potential (Fact) Then there is grade lumber and some of the practices that end up loosing the sawmill any overage, but that is another ordeal. But in a nutshell The 2x4 was reduced to a "Nominal" dimension of 1-1/2"x3-1/2" Years ago and is now a standard.
How many of you have encountered 2x6 construction lumber at 5-1/4" with grade stamp on it?

 

[revdup]

My point is since a Cord shrinks how does one accurately measure?

Question: If you buy a cord (4x4x8) of cut and split, should it come from a cord of logs or should it measure a cord after cutting and splitting.
Comment: "Seasoned" doesn't mean much if the pile or stacks aren't protected from rain and snow.
The higher an unprotected pile is, the faster that bacterial action will rot the wood and turn it
into carbon dioxide, if it can get enough air. If it is deprived of air it will turn into methane which will turn into carbon dioxide later when it gets enough air. Any moisture left in the wood has to turn into
steam to escape the fire box. That steam combined with sooty tars will condense on a cold chimney lining, creating creosote and chimney fires. Chimney fires have nothing to do with the type of wood
you burn unless it is wet wood. Any wood that is wet will make creosote buildup on a cool chimney.
Up to half the btu's in wet wood can go up the chimney as steam and not heat your home.
Most of this is not published info but has been learned firsthand and sometimes the hard way, over
a period of about 50 years. That includes 40 years of burning white balsam from my own land. That
also includes 30 years of no chimney fires and no chimney cleaning.

 

[Real1shepherd]

Question: If you buy a cord (4x4x8) of cut and split, should it come from a cord of logs or should it measure a cord after cutting and splitting.
Comment: "Seasoned" doesn't mean much if the pile or stacks aren't protected from rain and snow.
The higher an unprotected pile is, the faster that bacterial action will rot the wood and turn it
into carbon dioxide, if it can get enough air. If it is deprived of air it will turn into methane which will turn into carbon dioxide later when it gets enough air. Any moisture left in the wood has to turn into
steam to escape the fire box. That steam combined with sooty tars will condense on a cold chimney lining, creating creosote and chimney fires. Chimney fires have nothing to do with the type of wood
you burn unless it is wet wood. Any wood that is wet will make creosote buildup on a cool chimney.
Up to half the btu's in wet wood can go up the chimney as steam and not heat your home.
Most of this is not published info but has been learned firsthand and sometimes the hard way, over
a period of about 50 years. That includes 40 years of burning white balsam from my own land. That
also includes 30 years of no chimney fires and no chimney cleaning.

Depends on where you live. Here in eastern WA, we don't get enough moisture to affect wood so much that it needs to be seasoned undercover or inside a barn/outbuilding of some kind. And I found that many people don't even appreciate that like Maple, can be easily split after 1 1/2 seasons. On the western side of WA, it's another matter...you ALWAYS at least cover your wood, or pallet it inside a barn/outbuilding etc. And most people that live there at least know that.

In answer to your first question, we always based a 'cord' on stacked, split wood. Now it seems like they're trying to figure cords just dumped into some wood trailer. I guess you could come close that way, but we always had it ricked up beforehand or at least stacked in the trailer so we knew what we had. The customer could see it stacked that way first, even if we tossed it into their yard.

Kevin

 

[Bearcreek]

Question: If you buy a cord (4x4x8) of cut and split, should it come from a cord of logs or should it measure a cord after cutting and splitting.

"Cord" is a measure of volume, just like "gallon". If I have a gallon of ice (which includes air bubbles in between the oxygen and hydrogen molecules that make up the water) and it melts, I will then have less than a gallon of water. If I have a cord of logs, I have 128 cubic feet of logs, plus the moisture contained in them and the air inside of and between them. If I have a cord of cut, split firewood, I have 128 cubic feet, including the air in between the pieces and any air and moisture inside the pieces. If that pile looses moisture and shrinks to less than 128 cubic feet of wood, air and moisture, it is no longer a cord.

So, if you're buying a cord of wood, it should be 128 cubic feet once you tightly stack it, without further processing.

Also, it doesn't have to be 4x4x8, it just has to be 128 cubic feet. I've been amazed at the number of people who don't know how to do simple math, like figuring out the volume of a cube.

 

[Real1shepherd]

There's no such thing as a 'liquid' cord....as if cord wood could be poured into a 128 cubic ft container. That's why you split it, rick it tight, allow some extra on top for settle-age and call it good. It's just a formula;you can rick it in any shape you want as long as it comes up roughly 128 cubic ft.

If you've got customers complaining that after a yr, the stack has shrunk to less than a cord.....then you need to blacklist them.

Kevin

 

[jolj]

I cut firewood all my childhood, the way other boys played sports, because that what our Father taught us to do.
I could not believe that everyone did not have a wood stove.
I learned more about a cord this week, because we worked on a truck load & we never sold wood. everyone we knew had a chainsaw & a wood lot.
We did not split wood that would fit in the open top wood stove, but we did not sale it, so it did not have to be uniform or pretty.
Thanks for the healthy Debate.

 

[Hermio]

Depends on where you live. Here in eastern WA, we don't get enough moisture to affect wood so much that it needs to be seasoned undercover or inside a barn/outbuilding of some kind. And I found that many people don't even appreciate that like Maple, can be easily split after 1 1/2 seasons. On the western side of WA, it's another matter...you ALWAYS at least cover your wood, or pallet it inside a barn/outbuilding etc. And most people that live there at least know that.

In answer to your first question, we always based a 'cord' on stacked, split wood. Now it seems like they're trying to figure cords just dumped into some wood trailer. I guess you could come close that way, but we always had it ricked up beforehand or at least stacked in the trailer so we knew what we had. The customer could see it stacked that way first, even if we tossed it into their yard.

Kevin

In Ohio, there is a legal definition: 128 cubic feet of split wood, neatly stacked. Terms such as "rick", "face cord" and "thrown cord" are illegal for use in commerce.