What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate

[Locust Cutter]

I have to temper my above post with the disclaimer that my house is around 2500sqft (2 story) and the original part was built in 1880. The only square corners are the picture frames and it's only properlly insulated on the West and North sides... No Attic insulation and the doors (all 4 of them) leak like sieves. I am also asking a zone heating device to essentially take on the task of being a central heater, for which it was never intended (regardless of what the sales brochure says with it's 3000 sqft assertion). To that end it has done very well and It's just the particular quirks that drive me nuts. If I bought another non-cat it would be a european made one or a smoke dragon. Otherwise I'd have a cat and have an extra cat on hand for when it inevitably cracked out, on the weekend, in a blizzard, when the power was out...

 

[Eric Modell]

I have to temper my above post with the disclaimer that my house is around 2500sqft (2 story) and the original part was built in 1880. The only square corners are the picture frames and it's only properlly insulated on the West and North sides... No Attic insulation and the doors (all 4 of them) leak like sieves. I am also asking a zone heating device to essentially take on the task of being a central heater, for which it was never intended (regardless of what the sales brochure says with it's 3000 sqft assertion). To that end it has done very well and It's just the particular quirks that drive me nuts. If I bought another non-cat it would be a european made one or a smoke dragon. Otherwise I'd have a cat and have an extra cat on hand for when it inevitably cracked out, on the weekend, in a blizzard, when the power was out...

This is very inserting because I thought I wanted a secondary burn stove, But the comments lead to a non EPA stove or, cast or cat and none of those options were on my list.

 

[flotek]

You need to invest in blown in insulation it's the best money you'll spend and worth the effort. . Same with decent windows. . This is what you should be thinking about not stoves ..but If you are the type that burns less than seasoned wood you won't be happy with a epa unit or a cat and they will burn like total crap .. You might as well just keep using a old steel box with a blower instead of these new fangled fancy units That offer long clean burns . High tech wood burning requires low moisture and your not going to achieve that if your wood hasn't been cut *split * and stacked for at least a year .sounds like for you a 1800s style parlor stove is best

 

[flotek]

There are a ton of variables and firebox sizes and things to consider in these different designs but here's a general ~ way you can think about how they function and so fourth . A older airtight stove ( most wood furnaces use this design too ) burns hot and good but releases most of the btu in the wood for say 5 hrs the new style epa units have secondary burning and release somewhat softer heat in the wood but over say 8 hrs the cat stoves go further yet and can go 12 hr plus but it's not blazing billy hot ..new units require low moisture to accomish this. By using an old air tight design hour going to use nearly twice the amount of wood and your missing out on 30% of the extra heat .. For you that heat just gets wasted and goes right up the flue because it's not being burned off

 

[Eric Modell]

You need to invest in blown in insulation it's the best money you'll spend and worth the effort. . Same with decent windows. . This is what you should be thinking about not stoves ..but If you are the type that burns less than seasoned wood you won't be happy with a epa unit or a cat and they will burn like total crap .. You might as well just keep using a old steel box with a blower instead of these new fangled fancy units That offer long clean burns . High tech wood burning requires low moisture and your not going to achieve that if your wood hasn't been cut *split * and stacked for at least a year .sounds like for you a 1800s style parlor stove is best

We are holding out out for foam, and rock wool insulation. I have not run the numbers yet but looks like 6 or 8 grand to insulate. I am really just wanting to discuss the the science of burning wood. Some of these modern stoves are not the best fit for all applications. The observation I see is, high heat demand and the the modern efficient stoves can be a problem.

 

[flotek]

Well if you just want to make a ton of heat to over compensate for your house issues There's plenty of wood furnaces with huge 7 +sq ft fireboxes that will throw way over 100,000 btu in the house , but you better love to cut wood and have plenty of it in hand to feed your dragon. It's not uncommon to burn through. 8 +cords log truck amounts in some of these units what they lack in technology they make up in shear size and amount of wood being burned but its inefficient and wasting a great deal of heat

 

[flotek]

I heat my 2,000 sq ft house comfortably with a firebox that's around only 3 sq ft using a epa wood furnace . It uses about half the wood as my old airtight and if I wanted to I could go 12 hr in between loads and do it all cleanly with low emissions . Take they same unit put in a barn with no insulation and yeah I'd probably not keep it at 72 and it would go through more wood

 

[sunfish]

Are the Joutul's secondary burn or cat? I do not know why but I thought the cast stoves were high maintenance.I always thought I wanted a Buck, but the local dealer recommended a Jotul

They used to make both but not sure now.

My inlaws have the largest Jotul and it is a cat, is around 17 years old.

Mine is the 118CB and is non-cat.

 

[cheeves]

I have to temper my above post with the disclaimer that my house is around 2500sqft (2 story) and the original part was built in 1880. The only square corners are the picture frames and it's only properlly insulated on the West and North sides... No Attic insulation and the doors (all 4 of them) leak like sieves. I am also asking a zone heating device to essentially take on the task of being a central heater, for which it was never intended (regardless of what the sales brochure says with it's 3000 sqft assertion). To that end it has done very well and It's just the particular quirks that drive me nuts. If I bought another non-cat it would be a european made one or a smoke dragon. Otherwise I'd have a cat and have an extra cat on hand for when it inevitably cracked out, on the weekend, in a blizzard, when the power was out...

Get yourself a Tempwood!! I've used one since '77!! Heats this 200 year old house and 1/2 isn't insulated!!
Heard they are making them again in North Adams, MA! Mohawk Industries. Great Downdrafter and Easy to run!! Takes a serious load of wood and really puts out the heat! Most of my friends run them!!

 

[Ronaldo]

I am using a Pacific Energy Super 27 in a fairly well insulated ranch home with only one level that has 2100 square feet. This has been the main source of heat for 13 years and am very pleased with its performance. The stove has required no maintenance other than several secondary burn baffle gaskets(put in a new one when I take the baffle out for inspection and cleaning etc). It is -2 and 20mph winds outside, but a nice 72 inside as I type this. When very cold like this, I use a fan to move a bit more heat to the back bedrooms to keep temps more even. The only time I have coal build up problems is when burning Elm exclusively, and several splits of seasoned oak thrown in take care of excess coals.
This stove has worked great for me for many years and I highly reccomend them, but not all applications are the same........your mileage may vary as they say. That is my 2 cents.
Stay Warm!
Ron

 

[7sleeper]

Guessing this thread's gonna be "Interesting"

Honestly, if I could make my own pellets for a reasonable cost, a pellet stove would be ideal. Automated handling, large storage quantity, stove is fed what it needs, as it needs it.

But you can!
Just watch this guy make pellets....





7

 

[laynes69]

There's nothing wrong with the modern stoves, they have many benefits over the old. The problem lies when a stove is undersized for the heat load, or other things like an improper chimney or poor fuel is used. It's kinda like getting the wrong tires for the wrong load and blaming the tires or buying a car that can haul 4 when you need 5. The first year we upgraded, I had wood left over from the season, something that never happened before. I no longer had to worry about chimney fires either. Where I might pull a couple gallons of creosote from the chimney with the old unit, I now pull a quart. We also went from burning a half tank (200 gallons) of propane, to none with the new unit. I did tighten up our home, line our chimney and I started burning seasoned wood. Would I go back, nope.

 

[StihlFroling]

Alot of the problems with gassers are user error or installer error. Theres guys out there burning fresh downed trees, who needs seasoned wood. Then wonder why they have all this creosote build up, or burn twice the wood, can't get stove to recover. The list goes on. Or the guy who has a 35gpm pump on a 60 gallon stainless empyre, no wonder it takes days to raise the temp.
The best stoves are the old cast iron units that are still working today with a knowledgable person behind the fire. I personally say the Tarm/Froling,Effecta, Vigas is the best thing money can buy today to burn wood, but its not for everyone. It doesnt idle, you have to have storage, its crazy efficient with full controls. Nothing but burns cleaner with oxygen CO sensors monitoring flue gas,burn rate control and burn efficiency. You can fire the Tarm once every 3-5 days depending on your system. Automatic or manual. Only thing is you can just have a fire. As far as OWB's, almost everyones quality in materials has gone down. And warranty is a joke for most, and you will need it with the newer units.

 

[hman33]

Look at the new DS Machine Comfort Max wood /coal stove.It is a serious wood heater with secondary burn and circulator tubes up through the firebox.

 

[SWI Don]

I guess you like me and are just critical of my ways. We have lots of wood close just short on time. We find ourselves out of seasoned wood by Christmas and try to stay a month or so ahead.

Unless you have a ready supply of standing dead elm and can let it "season" for a month you shouldn't have a cat stove. I have burned standing dead elm (both red and American) fresh from the field but have better luck when it has had time to sit for a bit. Hissing wood will make for a shorter catalyst life and more cleaning of the catalyst.

I have found if I burn well seasoned wood I only need to clean the catalyst in the fall prior to the new season. Cat stoves work great but you must be prepared with well seasoned wood to get the best trouble free performance out of them.

 

[zogger]

"Uptown guys"??

the rich dudes uptown, with all the expensive designer new stuff..designer stove, designer dog, car, whatever.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Seems Locust Cutter is another Pacific Energy coal-shoveler. I honestly didn't hear much of this before Spidey started on his rampage last year. I'd be downright ticked off if I was throwing heat out into the yard. It just doesn't happen with my stove/installation/application, so I don't know what to say for sure, but I can guess from my experience that you all don't have enough stove.

I came close to falling for the 2-2.5 cf firebox being "enough" for 2000+ sq ft, it just ain't so, unless you live way down south, or have a VERY well insulated home, or can tend to it every few hours. No replacement for displacement still rules.

3.4CF of secondary burn firebox works well HERE for about 8 hours max, to get the 12 I'd like to have would take a bigger stove, MAYBE a different combustion system (I've heard the cat stories, but they don't talk much about efficiency when it's below 0), or simply dealing with some temperature loss at the end of the cycle (what I do now.)

 

[Whitespider]

I guess you like me and are just critical of my ways.

Now wait just a second... hold on a minute...
I said I don't remember ever expressing that I do not like you...
But I don't remember ever expressing that I do like you either

By using an old air tight design hour going to use nearly twice the amount of wood and your missing out on 30% of the extra heat... ...better love to cut wood and have plenty of it in hand to feed your dragon.

OK now... just hang on another friggin' minute...
Lots of guys are tellin' me that not every EPA stove, not every install, and not every user is having the same issues I did and it's unfair for me to generalize all because of my experience (even though I'm not the only one).

I'm gonna' say the same damn thing about your statements...
Except for barrel stoves (which do use a lot of wood), the firebox in my current smoke dragon furnace is the largest as I've ever owned... it puts out more friggin' heat than any firebox I've ever owned... and considering the temperatures this year I'd have to say it sure-in-hell don't use "twice the amount of wood"‼ It uses less than that EPA box did... and I'm thinkin' it uses about what the smaller smoke-dragon box before it used, while producing twice the heat‼

That 30% "extra heat" is crap... it's based on advertizing BS... there ain't any "real-world" proof of 30% and you know it. The efficiency rating is based on chimney emissions during testing in a lab, it ain't based on heat output and never has been... and it sure-in-hell ain't based on any "real-world" use or testing. If used and loaded properly, "an old air-tight design" (as you call it) will burn extremely clean and highly efficient... and that's based on real-world experience of over 40 years‼ If used improperly... well... not so much... no different then the new-fangled ones run crappy if ya' use 'em wrong.

Actually, when people defend the new-fangled, or especially when they slam the old stuff, it's statements like yours that get me riled-up‼ It ain't based on anything but advertizing hype, EPA propaganda and number manipulation. Yeah, sure, worse case, with an idiot running the smoke dragon, maybe 30%... maybe... maybe‼ But the same could be said about the new-fangled if an idiot is running it. In the real world, equal size fireboxes, equal quality, and someone with half a friggin' brain runnin' 'em... I'm bettin', over the long haul (like a full heating season), there ain't dry spit difference. Well... maybe there is a difference... ya' don't haf'ta keep screwin' around with the smoke dragon, just load it and slam the door until the next loading‼

It's just like your statement...
"It's not uncommon to burn through. 8 +cords log truck amounts in some of these units..."
It's also not uncommon to burn well under that amount in some of those units... but, you don't say that do ya?? I can tell ya', going on what I've burned so far ('round 1½, maybe close to 2 cord) I won't get anywhere near 8 cord in my old uninsulated farmhouse... and this is an unusually friggin cold year‼ It depends on how well you load it, how well you run it, what sort of wood you burn, how large an area your heating and a dozen other things... no friggin' different than any other firebox... EPA certified or not. The biggest wood-hog firebox I've ever owned was that EPA POS I used last year... so where's that put us now?? The damn thing is out in my shop now, and it uses more wood that the old barrel stove did, while giving less heat... so where's that put us now??

Oh... and I still ain't cleaned my chimney... and my chimney is still clean‼
Ain't never cleaned in over twenty years... ain't never been any need to clean it‼
How's that for "clean burning" in a smoke-dragon??
Give-me-a-friggin'-break‼

OK... rant over.
*

 

[Locust Cutter]

There are a ton of variables and firebox sizes and things to consider in these different designs but here's a general ~ way you can think about how they function and so fourth . A older airtight stove ( most wood furnaces use this design too ) burns hot and good but releases most of the btu in the wood for say 5 hrs the new style epa units have secondary burning and release somewhat softer heat in the wood but over say 8 hrs the cat stoves go further yet and can go 12 hr plus but it's not blazing billy hot ..new units require low moisture to accomish this. By using an old air tight design hour going to use nearly twice the amount of wood and your missing out on 30% of the extra heat .. For you that heat just gets wasted and goes right up the flue because it's not being burned off

There's nothing wrong with the modern stoves, they have many benefits over the old. The problem lies when a stove is undersized for the heat load, or other things like an improper chimney or poor fuel is used. It's kinda like getting the wrong tires for the wrong load and blaming the tires or buying a car that can haul 4 when you need 5. The first year we upgraded, I had wood left over from the season, something that never happened before. I no longer had to worry about chimney fires either. Where I might pull a couple gallons of creosote from the chimney with the old unit, I now pull a quart. We also went from burning a half tank (200 gallons) of propane, to none with the new unit. I did tighten up our home, line our chimney and I started burning seasoned wood. Would I go back, nope.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but my draft is fine, after 2 seasons, the total debris that came out of my chimney after being professionally cleaned was about the same a the small coffee cans (1/2lb?) and the wood I burn is seasoned at least 1 year from time of splitting to time of burning... I still have the same complaints. My great Aunt had a super 27 (the reason I went with PE) and it was fantastic! She, however, had a wonderfully insulated house with an unusually thick concrete pad and poured concrete walls. Once it got hot or cold, it stayed that way. Modern stoves have their place, but the old-tech still can still be the better choice, depending on your application.

 

[laynes69]

I have to temper my above post with the disclaimer that my house is around 2500sqft (2 story) and the original part was built in 1880. The only square corners are the picture frames and it's only properlly insulated on the West and North sides... No Attic insulation and the doors (all 4 of them) leak like sieves. I am also asking a zone heating device to essentially take on the task of being a central heater, for which it was never intended (regardless of what the sales brochure says with it's 3000 sqft assertion). To that end it has done very well and It's just the particular quirks that drive me nuts. If I bought another non-cat it would be a european made one or a smoke dragon. Otherwise I'd have a cat and have an extra cat on hand for when it inevitably cracked out, on the weekend, in a blizzard, when the power was out...

So here your stove is well undersized for the home, where your shoveling out coals to make more room for wood. Your aunt however has a well insulated home with no problems, which proves my point. If the stove is sized correctly, it can burn a full cycle. On the otherhand if your too small, you push the stove with more wood trying to recoupe heat. This causes excessive coaling. For us, the tighter our home becomes (a 2500 sqft Victorian) the less coaling becomes an issue. My point is it's not always the technology, but the application it is used in.