What Stihl for a 28 inch bar?

[Bludenz]

Hello,

Trying to figure out what saw I want to get.

1) Would run a 28 inch bar and chain full time - hard wood, bar would be buried. (Wood is gum, lots of different species, and Peppermint tree, aka Agonis Flexuosa)
2) budget is roughly 1000aud, or approx 700usd
3) Preferably Stihl, that is what I have parts/tools for, also most dealers in my area only sell Stihl parts...
4) I don't mind if it is either m-tronic, or manual carb.
5) I'd rather not port saws, I'd like to keep mine OEM

I've read good things about the 461, so that's what I've been looking for. I've been looking for quite a while and these are rather rare, or very expensive here in Aus. I've also read good things about the 044, however I've heard some people say that a 24 inch bar is it's sweet spot, can anyone confirm? Other than that, I've looked at the 661c-m, which comes up occasionally for okay prices. I've also heard not so good things about the 441, apparently, "every company has a lemon, and the 441 falls into that catagory", again, can anyone confirm/deny thing?

I'd love a project 461, etc... however those just don't ever come up. A project saw for sale in Australia is extremely rare... I'm hoping that David Major on this forum can find a project 461 for me to purchase, his last one was already sold when I inquired about it

So, what saw do you recommend for me to purchase?

Thanks in advance!

 

[rocketnorton]

460?

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

28 inch bar buried, Aussie timber, Stihl...... 066/660/661 minimum, 064/640 as a capable possible and learn how to keep chains sharp.

 

[Bludenz]

Thanks for the recommendations guys.

 

[ballisticdoughnut]

28 inch bar buried, Aussie timber, Stihl...... 066/660/661 minimum, 064/640 as a capable possible and learn how to keep chains sharp.

Exactly my thought. 28” bar balls deep in hardwood is 90cc territory.

 

[barfer]

Exactly my thought. 28” bar balls deep in hardwood is 90cc territory.

No argument but I can tell you that my 70cc ~7hp Stihl has no problem balls deep in white oak with a 28” bar. So “it can be done” but sure 90cc would be better no doubt.

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

No argument but I can tell you that my 70cc ~7hp Stihl has no problem balls deep in white oak with a 28” bar. So “it can be done” but sure 90cc would be better no doubt.

You kind of have to had cut Aussie timber in Aussie to appreciate it- Eucalypt grown in the States (lots in Cali) just isnt the same.

 

[barfer]

You kind of have to had cut Aussie timber in Aussie to appreciate it- Eucalypt grown in the States (lots in Cali) just isnt the same.

I believe it. Oz is as foreign a land as it gets. But here in NorCal we got some pretty tough hardwood… also filled with sap… but you’re right idk anything about Ozzie eucalyptus

 

[MustangMike]

My 2 cents ... for whatever that is worth.

If powerhead weight is not an issue, 660s or 661s are both good saws, but the newer 661s are generally more expensive and the spring AV is smoother but may not be as durable as the good old rubber bushings.

A properly ported 460 or 461 is a lighter powerhead and should not have any issues.

Beware of stock 461s, they do have some issues. First, they run very hot and can burn up easily. They have an internal saddle ... the only purpose for it is to re-direct the intake to cool the piston to help prevent burnup. The first thing I always do to them (for my tree guys) is remove the carb limiters and make the Hi richer, this will cure this issue.

Secondly, be very careful with the spark plugs. The cylinders are known for having weak threads, and I have had several of them come to me with stripped threads.

That said, stock 461s generally have more torque than a 460, but ported the differences disappear. I personally prefer ported 460s, I think they are more durable and there are a lot more of them out there for parts. 461 cases are longer than 460 to accommodate the 4-port cylinder with the transfer in the front instead of on the sides.

044/440s are great power to weight saws, but I would go with more cc's for what you want it to do. I do have a 440/460 Hybrid that is an absolute beast, but you have to know a good porter who is familiar with this build to get one that has great torque.

Both 460s and 660s have very inconsistent cylinders, both with squish and port timing. 440s and 461s seem to be much more consistent.

If you find one that runs great keep it. Otherwise, I would recommend you learn how to modify and/or port saws or find someone who does.

Muffler Mods, removing carb limiters, timing advances and base gasket deletes can all make a big difference, and these things made my 044 run like a ported saw, but that will not aways be the case. If you learn about porting, you can sometimes find a lot more power doing minor mods to the intake and exhaust port. While a Dremel tool is preferred, it can be done with a round chain file. But know what you are doing first, you don't want to ruin a cylinder.

 

[Bludenz]

At least two of the trees that I will be cutting are right along a fence and next to a house, can't be felled. They have to be climbed and chucked down. Powerhead weight is not so much an issue but if it is lighter it will certainly help! Might go with a 461... I've also read that the 461's had a recall for a fuel line issue. If I would purchase a 461 do you recommend reconditioning fuel lines, etc...? I'd do a service (filters, spark plug, carb kit possibly, etc...) on which ever saw I end up buying.

When you say that the 461's run very hot, is there any solution/reason to this? Do they run hot when they are overworked or used for long hours, or do they just generally run hot? Additionally, thanks for the tip with the carb limiters, would most likely end up removing those and giving it a nice retune.

 

[barfer]

At least two of the trees that I will be cutting are right along a fence and next to a house, can't be felled. They have to be climbed and chucked down. Powerhead weight is not so much an issue but if it is lighter it will certainly help! Might go with a 461... I've also read that the 461's had a recall for a fuel line issue. If I would purchase a 461 do you recommend reconditioning fuel lines, etc...? I'd do a service (filters, spark plug, carb kit possibly, etc...) on which ever saw I end up buying.

When you say that the 461's run very hot, is there any solution/reason to this? Do they run hot when they are overworked or used for long hours, or do they just generally run hot? Additionally, thanks for the tip with the carb limiters, would most likely end up removing those and giving it a nice retune.

Saws can run hot for lots of reasons—tuned too lean… too much ethanol in the fuel… the list goes on… I’ve never owned a 461 but I’ve owned saws that ran hot form the factory and had to be modified (each in their own particular way) to keep them running at the “right” temp

 

[MustangMike]

The 461 runs too hot to meet the newer emissions standards (compared to the 460). It has a different carb and is tuned too lean. If you remove the limiters and open the Hi about 1 1/8 turns (instead of the factory 3/4 turn limit) you will be OK.

Also, the muffler is too jammed up. Remove the cover and drill 2 - 1/4" holes high on the right side as close to the seam as possible (you want better venting but some back pressure for torque). Openings in the front make too much noise and reduce back pressure too much (IMO). They will also make the saw a fuel hog. Opening up the muffler will make your saw run stronger and cooler and it will last longer.

I would not delete the base gasket on a 461 unless you really know what you are doing as it can cause other issues. On a 440 - 460 - or 660 it is always OK as long as you check the squish. Optimum squish is .020, but most stock saws have a lot more than that.

A timing advance (.020 off the key will give you about a 6* advance) also often helps and keeps the saw in sync with the other mods.

 

[Bludenz]

Thanks for the insight guys. I'll see what saw I'll end up purchasing and then I'll most likely come back here for advice!

 

[MustangMike]

Another possibility, but likely above what you wish to spend is the new MS500. It is very light and very strong and gets good reviews. The only downside is the fuel injection does not conserve fuel (it eats fuel).

If you are only going to use one saw, I would go back to what my Dad used to say: "Quality will be remembered long after the price paid is forgotten".

I remember having sticker shock when I purchased my first Stihl saw ... an 044 back in Dec 92. It was on sale at a place that was closing. I honestly don't remember what I paid for it, but it still runs great and for many years was my only chainsaw!

 

[Bludenz]

I have considered the 500i, heavily. The main thing is that parts are extremely expensive.

I'm rather OCD, and while I understand not everything is perfect, and chainsaws get used I always like to clean my chainsaws after use and replace broken parts... I don't want to spend a couple hundred on new OEM covers because one gets cracked or something... I'd much rather an older saw where there is a lot of parts available for reasonable prices.

I'm waiting on a reply from David Major at the moment, I might just have to work out something with him! He seems to be extremely trust worthy from how many saws he sells, so I trust him at the moment

 

[barfer]

Another possibility, but likely above what you wish to spend is the new MS500. It is very light and very strong and gets good reviews. The only downside is the fuel injection does not conserve fuel (it eats fuel).

If you are only going to use one saw, I would go back to what my Dad used to say: "Quality will be remembered long after the price paid is forgotten".

I remember having sticker shock when I purchased my first Stihl saw ... an 044 back in Dec 92. It was on sale at a place that was closing. I honestly don't remember what I paid for it, but it still runs great and for many years was my only chainsaw!

“Only cry once” is what we used to say

 

[Bludenz]

I agree! Buy once, Cry once!

 

[barfer]

I agree! Buy once, Cry once!

But given your budget getting an older saw is the way to go for sure. The problem you’re looking at is finding one that is solid at a fair price. In Oz no less.

Good luck!