What to do - topping???

[treeseer]

we deciding on topping(I call it reducing) .

Topping cuts are often internodal and determined by human criteria, often the climber's convenience.

Reduction cuts are to laterals or other nodes, and determined by the tree's needs and longterm health. The difference is clear in ANSI, and most of the posters here seem to understand the difference.

OTG, I think those oaks would still be standing if they had been pruned more mildly, and with less decay. Notnetheless, it looks more like reduction than topping to me.

If a tree owner wanted me to whack a maple at 15', I would whip out my laser pointer and show him where I would make the cuts on the hardest reduction I could do and still look at the mirror, and the tree, in the morning.

 

[hornett22]

as far as the state of corrupticut .............

There are many exceptions.

Too much of the "anti-topping" campaign is a bad thing. If you say you will never do it, you are limiting yourself as an arborist.

The tree in the foreground is over 200 years old, if this tree hadn't been reduced over the years it would have blown over a long time ago.

i'm not an arborist.i do removals only.the state knows who is an arborist,we in the industry know who is an arborist.most customers don't know or care who is an arborist or what services the person they're hiring is supposed to be certified for.i still don't top trees.if they insist,i refer them to a certified arborist.that way i'm not to blame either way.

 

[beastmaster]

Good decision, and a good start in your business ethics. From 50' to 15', why not just remove it and start with a smaller growing tree. I never hear people telling their gardeners how to mow their yards, but homeowners often inceses on butchering their trees, causing the vary problems they want to avoid. There's always other options.

 

[Mitchell]

to top or not

THE DISCLAIMER: I am not advocating, lobbying or trying to pursued as I generally remain uncertian how bad topping is; I am trying to educate myself further.

I have topped a fair number of trees. Mainly due to the area I work which has a lot of previously topped trees. I am faced with re topping and or cabling the 2 or 3 new tops. In the interest of tree health I have cabled a number of trees instead of topping them back.

The question that nags me and I pose to you folks is this: Is the tree health worth the [in my estimation] the huge increase in downstream liability when cabling? After all, the tops are not going to come off if there not there.

Having said that... I find that folks who adamantly refuse to consider the literature are generally PITA customers and I have declined to do work for them based on that.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

No doubt we agree!

No doubt, I was just playing devils advocate:jester:

TS, those are ELMS (the big one is called the "Hancock Elm", supposedly planted by the man himself)

THill, you know who used to prune those trees. Corporate sent a letter saying they want nothing to do with them anymore

They were pruned again a few weeks ago, good sound wood, old cuts are callousing over, plenty of vigor.

Keep in mind these trees have lived through some of the worst autrocities tree guys ever made, with cavity fills and toxic wound paint and the like.

 

[jomoco]

It seems that an important component of this conversation is being overlooked.

The terms Topping and Pollarding are not the same in terms of tree maintenance over time.

The term Pollarding differs in that once the tree is topped or cut back to a certain point, it is maintained on a regular schedule by only removing the regrowth or suckers emanating from the original cut back point. Over time callous wood forms over the original wound and the arborist is very careful to only remove suckers at the bark branch ridge, this results in a mushroom like callous wood structure that grows bigger and bigger over the years forming a very distinctive elephants foot. This is very common in European countries as both a form of topiary art, as well as a means of maintaining a trees size and ability to withstand storms. This type of pruning has been practiced for centuries throughout the world and is markedly different from what we call topping in general with such disdain and contempt.

So in effect topping and pollarding are two distinctly different forms of tree maintenance, and should be recognized as such by all professional arborists, one is done by unprofessional or unknowing amateurs, the other is done in a very exacting manner by highly skilled professionals in which the outcome over time can be a striking, practical and very beautiful form of living arboricultural art.

jomoco

 

[bushinspector]

Rattling cages

I am in the same camp as most people on this site.---Against topping----However, after you discuss all of the problems with topping with the home owner, and he still wants it hacked (topped) , we will do it. We try to give the clients what they want. If they really wants to top it, its their tree and they will get someone to cut it the way THEY want.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"

 

[Canyonbc]

It seems that an important component of this conversation is being overlooked.

The terms Topping and Pollarding are not the same in terms of tree maintenance over time.

The term Pollarding differs in that once the tree is topped or cut back to a certain point, it is maintained on a regular schedule by only removing the regrowth or suckers emanating from the original cut back point. Over time callous wood forms over the original wound and the arborist is very careful to only remove suckers at the bark branch ridge, this results in a mushroom like callous wood structure that grows bigger and bigger over the years forming a very distinctive elephants foot. This is very common in European countries as both a form of topiary art, as well as a means of maintaining a trees size and ability to withstand storms. This type of pruning has been practiced for centuries throughout the world and is markedly different from what we call topping in general with such disdain and contempt.

So in effect topping and pollarding are two distinctly different forms of tree maintenance, and should be recognized as such by all professional arborists, one is done by unprofessional or unknowing amateurs, the other is done in a very exacting manner by highly skilled professionals in which the outcome over time can be a striking, practical and very beautiful form of living arboricultural art.

jomoco

I think that is very well put..and was a question i was going to ask, makes perfect sense...an i have seen it done.

Thanks for more information

 

[NickfromWI]

2) If I don't, they will still get someone to do it. You can not talk them out of it.

You don't know this. It does happen time and time again. But every once in a while, someone says to their neighbor, "that guy wouldn't cut my tree. How odd." Then the neighbor enlightens them. Then they learn.

They can't learn if you don't give them a good foundation to start with.

love
nick

 

[pbtree]

Thanks for the responses....

I am 19, and dam it really need the money, but some things i just wont do. Thanks for reassuring that i am did the right thing.

Canyon

I thing you did just fine grasshopper!

 

[yibida]

Nice to see.

Although our industry is still quite young in comparison with many other professions i applaud your ethics and hope that this is a more common reaction among younger Arborists. We have available the knowledge, tools and influence to promote our industry in a way that can educate and inform.

Stay true.

 

[reachtreeservi]

You don't know this. It does happen time and time again. But every once in a while, someone says to their neighbor, "that guy wouldn't cut my tree. How odd." Then the neighbor enlightens them. Then they learn.

They can't learn if you don't give them a good foundation to start with.

love
nick

Hi Nick,
In the same post, you quote me as saying : If I don't top the tree per customer request, then they will just get someone else to do it.

Then you say: I don't know this ( meaning that I don't know someone else will top it if I don't)

Immediately afterward you say : "It does happen time and time again"...

Here is my response to your post:

There is no way for you to know what I do or don't know.
By your own admission , people who have been advised against topping get some else to top their tree "time and time again"

Which would mean that I do know.

My policy about topping developed from first hand observation over many years. After refusing to top customers trees several hundred times and driving by at a later date and seeing the same trees topped by another tree company , I decided to top the tree if the customer couldn't be talked out of it.

If you read the earlier post in this thread, I said this is what I do, if You want to call me a hack...fine,
Then I said " everyone has to do what they feel is right, If canyonbc doesn't feel topping is right then I support his decision.

If you want to call me a hack Nick, then just say that.
But don't presume to tell me what I don't know.

If a customer can't learn from the literature and information I give them , Then I cut their tree and take their money. It's not my job to make people do the right thing with their property. Or to educate them if they don't want to be educated. My job is to cut trees and get paid. I'm not a tree hugger or an arborist, I own a tree service.
I do what the customer wants done. And that feeds and clothes my family. And my employee's families. That's my foundation.

 

[treejunkie13]

Money makes the world go round. I have found my self advertising Height Reduction (lots of old school topping in my area) then when I get my foot in the door I explain the good and bad ethics. This is where the laser pointer is a priceless tool. I like to please the costumer and make money, but no way am I going to have my name on beauty tree that is now a coat rack.

Every tree is different, and some are in locations where topping is the option, the tree is to big and if were to uproot cause serious damage. And I can admire the owner wanting to not lose the hole tree but keep it around longer.I am guilty of topping many a conifers because of this. They provide low level privacy and the root structure is holding the ground but way to tall. I maintain the rule of 3rd's never removing more than a 3rd of the tree that is to stay and unless need be not affecting the lower limbs. The untrained eye does not look up. And I have found that most customers want the NOW decision and not the 5, 10, many year plan. Plus if down the road in time they decide to have the rest of the tree removed it's like getting paid twice for the tree. Flat out if what they ask me to do makes my hair stand I price high, then offer a deal on complete removal explaining how it would be easier. It all depends on the tree.

 

[treeseer]

Talk alone seldom changes minds or educates. If you have the ANSI standards or the BMP's or other literature in your hand when you describe the results of topping vs. pruning, you will change many more minds.

You will also continue your own evolution to arborist, which is a higher paying profession than tree cutter, and a whole lot more fun. The literature is cheap compared to the cost of staying stuck competing with the growing number of hacks out there.

 

[treejunkie13]

As a matter of fact my picture to the left is of a job the costumer wanted the trees topped. I gave my two cents. (YOU WANT ME TO DO WHAT!) He was a straight up old timer, (bull). Got in the truck and left thinking I just wasted an hour of my life. Couple weeks went by and the phone rang, I was in shock. The trees are now gone and he is one happy camper. Don't know what changed his mind, but he is passing my name on.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I tell people that if they can picture a trimmed shrub and how fast they grow they can visualize a plants response to the stress of loss of foliage. Sprouting is fast growing and weak and quite often will defeat the purpose of intended by the treatment because of the fast growing nature. Then there is the inherent decay from the cuts.

It takes about 5 minutes and finished by a saying that i will either trim or remove a tree, never top.

 

[Canyonbc]

I tell people that if they can picture a trimmed shrub and how fast they grow they can visualize a plants response to the stress of loss of foliage. Sprouting is fast growing and weak and quite often will defeat the purpose of intended by the treatment because of the fast growing nature. Then there is the inherent decay from the cuts.

It takes about 5 minutes and finished by a saying that i will either trim or remove a tree, never top.

I think that is the best way i have ever heard to explain it to a customer. Its put it such simple terms. And not only does it put it simple terms the metaphor is something that a lot of customers understand.

I like it.

Canyon

 

[Ekka]

What I love about this thread is the old vigour coming out on all sides.

Boston OTG, that was a reduction not a toppping and veteran tree management goes by almost any rules so long as the tree lives even if it means evacuating the area.

Here's the history channel AS style thread on similar but same topic.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=21712

This post on gets interesting. Bit of a snippet for ya's.

Yes, you are right, there are better alternatives but the customer is not interested in them, and you have wasted your time, effort and breath on this one who just .... more

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I think that is the best way i have ever heard to explain it to a customer. Its put it such simple terms. And not only does it put it simple terms the metaphor is something that a lot of customers understand.

I like it.

Canyon

I think analogy is more appropriate

This is a part of selling, when you have an issue you "revisit" on a regular basis you should develop a boilerplate monologue for it that you use evrey time.

This way when they say "you said this" you can say,"no I said it this way, I know that because I say it that way all the time." Most often it will jog their memory there will be agreement.

It also helps you sound knowledgeable and self assured when discussing or pitching. I'll do this for that reason and that for this reason and do not like doing the other thing because of this well documented fact based in university research.

I find that I can increase my closing rate at least 25-30% by doing a walk and talk with the prospective client.

Most people appreciate the whys and wherefores of what you propose, and quite often you can get the job from the low bidder who will just jot down "trim tree" on a bid sheet.

"You are the expert, do what you think best. Hey Jenny come here and meet My Tree Guy!"

 

[Canyonbc]

I think analogy is more appropriate

This is a part of selling, when you have an issue you "revisit" on a regular basis you should develop a boilerplate monologue for it that you use evrey time.

This way when they say "you said this" you can say,"no I said it this way, I know that because I say it that way all the time." Most often it will jog their memory there will be agreement.

It also helps you sound knowledgeable and self assured when discussing or pitching. I'll do this for that reason and that for this reason and do not like doing the other thing because of this well documented fact based in university research.

I find that I can increase my closing rate at least 25-30% by doing a walk and talk with the prospective client.

Most people appreciate the whys and wherefores of what you propose, and quite often you can get the job from the low bidder who will just jot down "trim tree" on a bid sheet.

"You are the expert, do what you think best. Hey Jenny come here and meet My Tree Guy!"

Ya JPS, i agree i had just got home from work...analogy is the right word...i dont know why i wrote metaphor but thank you for correcting me.