What to do - topping???

[chucknduck]

put it in your contract

I agree that topping is not good for trees. I will discuss with the customer exactly why it is not good, and still they insist on having it topped, I will read over my contract with them. I added a section in my contract last year after many a topping request. It says; contractor not liable for the death of the tree, any new growth breaking and causing propery damage, injury or death, any limbs that don't regrow, any parts of the tree infested with parasitic insects, including woodborers, or any fungal diseases associated with the tree after the top has been removed.. And believe it or not some people still want their tree topped!!

 

[reachtreeservi]

I agree that topping is not good for trees. I will discuss with the customer exactly why it is not good, and still they insist on having it topped, I will read over my contract with them. I added a section in my contract last year after many a topping request. It says; contractor not liable for the death of the tree, any new growth breaking and causing propery damage, injury or death, any limbs that don't regrow, any parts of the tree infested with parasitic insects, including woodborers, or any fungal diseases associated with the tree after the top has been removed.. And believe it or not some people still want their tree topped!!

That's a great idea, chucknduck. THX for the idea. The way the courts are now a days you can't be too careful.

 

[ronnyb]

Good job walking away from the topping. Did you try to sell him on removing the tree? Sorry, didn't have time to read every post. Tree removal, stump grinding and clean up, and replanting an appropriate tree for the site. It all adds up fast, financially.

 

[woodchux]

There are some species of trees that i have absolutely no problems topping out. Bradford Pears for one, IMO after they reach a certain size the best thing you could do for the tree is a severe reduction. Done on a 3 year cycle we have had pretty good results prolonging the life of the Bradford pears in our program.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

There are some species of trees that i have absolutely no problems topping out. Bradford Pears for one, IMO after they reach a certain size the best thing you could do for the tree is a severe reduction. Done on a 3 year cycle we have had pretty good results prolonging the life of the Bradford pears in our program.

They are better with a dropcrotch, but if you are on a 3 year cycle, then a pollard would be much better.

 

[woodchux]

Here are a couple of oaks that were basically turned into giant boxwoods.
I didnt hack these oaks. Oaks are one tree that never does well topped out.
Anyone want to climb around in them now?

 

[Jon Denver]

"Here are a couple of oaks that were basically turned into giant boxwoods.
I didn't hack these oaks. Oaks are one tree that never does well topped out.
Anyone want to climb around in them now?"

Shure, I will. Start by a major thinning, select all the new branch leaders, then drop crotch those back or just hack back by 2/3. Let grow back for a few years, then repeat. Eventually you will get great taper and robust branch ramification in 10 years or so. You don't want to do anything this drastic on a few oaks however but these responded very well.

Most deciduous trees can be hacked back hard to stump in winter when all the tree's energy is in the root system. As spring arrives the tree will shoot out vigorous new suckers which are only weak if you let the tree go for along time without a yearly pruning plan. They always have to be short from now on. This can easily be achieved by cutting back the long suckers each year by 2/3 and thinning every 2 to 3 years until you have a very stout looking mini version of its full sized counterpart. I have been doing this for years on Birch, Liquid Ambar, Elm, and many others. But not all.

There is the risk of cavity in the first large cut and that is part of the reason that is critical the keep the tree stout, like a big landscape bonsai. That is what alot of people want anyway and if only the utility companys did this instead of the Max Headrom look.

I would never do this on most conifers and some broad leaf evergreens. The exception is Redwood because they send up vertical suckers that can be isolated into the new top over and over.It would need to be trained in this way from an early age. You just have to inform the homeowner that they need you back at least every other year to take the new leaders back by 2/3 to 1/2. Otherwise topping is bad.

 

[zeke]

Here is my two cents. I don't top trees, ever. Drop crotch is not topping if done correctly. I know we all have to make a living but I want to do it and still like myself. I don't like how a topped tree looks, I don't like how a topped tree reacts, there is plenty of research and plenty of anecdotal evidence of what happens to topped trees. In my area, there are CAs who top when asked, how does that make us look as an industry? Yeah, someone will do it, but it won't be me or my company. If we can all get on the same page, we might change the public view of this practice. As in all things, there are exceptions, nothing is black and white but as a standard, we need to get away from these practices which have been proven detrimental to the trees.

 

[beowulf343]

You absolutely did the right thing. I will not top either. I will suggest complete removal, crown reduction, or trimming off some weight on worrysome leads but will not top a tree.

I thought real "arborists" don't promote complete removals either.

Surprised no one has brought up storm damaged trees. I've probably topped hundreds of trees (alot of them in '98 alone.) The top gets damaged, i'll go up and blow it out. What's better, topped tree still alive, or a removed tree?

 

[Jon Denver]

Yes, and a most Acers respond very well to topping. I have topped many, especially Acer Pseudo-platanus or Sycamore maple. You just have to explain to the client the long term goals and that they have to have you out there every winter to cut back the adventitious shoots 2/3rds and thin, these will become the new branch scaffolding. In 10 years or so you create a real mini version of its full sized counterpart. There seems to be one tree service around here other than me that seems to acually think about the future and not just the short term because in the short term these topped trees look like crappola, but yes, it is the future we are looking at here. This practice has to happen alot here because from what I have observed most tree companys lion tail which causes more apical growth, which causes the limb to get longer whithout much gain in diamiter and pretty soon, snap! When I get there it is often to late to do anything other than top to stub (no good branch to cut back to). At this point it is better to go lower, like way low and basically start over. You have to check your species before doing this however. Do this on a pine and it will die and of course the right time of year.

 

[treeseer]

You don't want to do anything this drastic on a few oaks however but these responded very well.
There is the risk of cavity in the first large cut and that is part of the reason that is critical the keep the tree stout, like a big landscape bonsai. .

So let me get this straight. The stems will rot out from big wounds, but it will be ok as long as someone is there to prune it regularly and keep it short.

And when that stops happening because of a new owner or the arborist moving or retiring, what then?

O and topping as the logical response to liontailing, right. What else?

lots of new info on this site!:monkey:

beowulf has it right on managing storm-damaged trees tho.

 

[Ekka]

What's better, topped tree still alive, or a removed tree?

Yes, and a most Acers respond very well to topping. I have topped many, especially Acer Pseudo-platanus or Sycamore maple. You just have to explain to the client the long term goals and that they have to have you out there every winter to cut back the adventitious shoots 2/3rds and thin, these will become the new branch scaffolding. In 10 years or so you create a real mini version of its full sized counterpart. There seems to be one tree service around here other than me that seems to acually think about the future and not just the short term because in the short term these topped trees look like crappola, but yes, it is the future we are looking at here. This practice has to happen alot here because from what I have observed most tree companys lion tail which causes more apical growth, which causes the limb to get longer whithout much gain in diamiter and pretty soon, snap! When I get there it is often to late to do anything other than top to stub (no good branch to cut back to). At this point it is better to go lower, like way low and basically start over. You have to check your species before doing this however. Do this on a pine and it will die and of course the right time of year.

So let me get this straight. The stems will rot out from big wounds, but it will be ok as long as someone is there to prune it regularly and keep it short.

And when that stops happening because of a new owner or the arborist moving or retiring, what then?

O and topping as the logical response to liontailing, right. What else?

lots of new info on this site!:monkey:

beowulf has it right on managing storm-damaged trees tho.

If it's OK for a storm damaged tree ... then why not prior to storm damage? Jon Denver contests with futuristic probability of failure, same end result? :monkey:

Why wait for the failure and the damage, wouldn't a professional foresee the inevitable Treeseer and manage in the same way as you propose?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

beowulf has it right on managing storm-damaged trees tho.

I don't really know about that. It all depends on where he makes the cut. If he gaffs up there to make that cut, then that is just that much worse. Some of the worst old gaff wounds I've seen are on the oaks we worked on after that ice storm you guys had.

I can remember some discussions somewhere about nodal pruning.

The part about preserving the existing tree I do agree with though.

Why wait for the failure and the damage, wouldn't a professional foresee the inevitable Treeseer and manage in the same way as you propose?

What are you saying, the tree will break, so cut it down, or should all trees be on a 3 year topping cycle?

A professional will see the possible, such as large included unions that are prone to failure under unusual loading.

You just have to explain to the client the long term goals and that they have to have you out there every winter to cut back the adventitious shoots 2/3rds and thin,

This sounds more like a pollarding cycle than a hatrack. At what diameter do you make the initial cuts?

IMO a fine thin in the tips is better then what I'm reading in your posts. Yeah, many uneducated companies sell a thining , but just do a raise and gut. No work is done on the ends so the moment of bend is moved out to wood that has not developed to take the load.

 

[Jon Denver]

"IMO a fine thin in the tips is better then what I'm reading in your posts. Yeah, many uneducated companies sell a thinning , but just do a raise and gut. No work is done on the ends so the moment of bend is moved out to wood that has not developed to take the load."

And that is the major problem, If the tree was thinned back on the tips from a young age the proper way you would never need to be this drastic, but sadly this is not always the case. The company does the easy thing to make it look good in the immediate and go home with their easy money. Then the branch grows real long in response and because their are no interior branches the trunk puts on less girth in that area, lots of leverage and these can break.

"So let me get this straight. The stems will rot out from big wounds, but it will be ok as long as someone is there to prune it regularly and keep it short.

And when that stops happening because of a new owner or the arborist moving or retiring, what then?

O and topping as the logical response to liontailing, right. What else?"

The stems don't rot, the exposed heartwood can though. The stems expedite healing in this area. And this is not a pollard like you see on mulberry where you cut back to knuckles every time. What we are doing here is creating a new heavily ramified branch scaffolding through repetitive heading back of new seasons growth by 2/3 or so every year, not back to the original point every time. We want the tree to get bigger, but in a dwarf fashion like a fruit tree in a way. The big mistake would be after topping like this to just let the new whips soar to the sky and then in many years those points of attachment will be inherently weak.

If I move, the client knows what to do at this point and if the client moves than he can pass on the info to the new homeowner.

And finally topping is not always the response to lion tailing. If the tree is not threatening structure than who cares unless for aesthetics. I hate the way a lion tailed tree looks though. The worst is seeing this done to oaks because the tree climber was too scared to get way out there and tip it back instead.

Some of those broken ice trees I saw on the news this morning look like they were liontailed to much.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

And finally topping is not always the response to lion tailing. If the tree is not threatening structure than who cares unless for aesthetics. I hate the way a lion tailed tree looks though. The worst is seeing this done to oaks because the tree climber was too scared to get way out there and tip it back instead.

We have something to agree about there.

I'm gettin a better idea as to what you are doing. I would still like to hear what diameter you start your cuts at.

 

[Jon Denver]

Ideally the smaller diameter the better. Its always a race between healing and rot. It depends entirely on the situation like how the species heal (Ginko sucks in this department) or hazard to structures, Available branching, ultimate height of finished tree and many others. The lower the cut the larger the diameter and this has to be weight against all the pros and cons of taking it higher or lower with the rot factor. The biggest diameter would have to be a large Elm that a client wanted me to remove because they lost a large spar due to included bark. I talked them into taking it back from about 60 feet to 15, all the crotches above this point had steep angles of attachment and they did not want it to ever be that tall again. The largest diameter cut was probably 20 inches. These cuts have a good chance to cavity but the tree is highly unlikely to break again because of low leverage. Every winter they hire me to cut back the 10 foot long whips to a lower set of 2 buds for a "Y" these cuts are made low and are maby 3" diameter and 2 feet above the previous years cuts. The lower the more stout the tree will be. Rinse and repeat, The tree is starting to look like a hobbit tree and all big cuts are hidden from view from the ground for the most part by the new branching.:biggrinbounce2:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've done similar treatments with 3 inc drop crotch, but a 20 inch wound on a 15 ft spar will probably never close and will become a cavity. Ive seen these large wounds "case hardened" on the dry outside and punky rot an inch under.

I'm in the crowd that hates the term heal, since the wound wood closes over the deadwood.

Sounds like one could call the treatment sequential roundover or something People do this around here with small ornimentals, like crabapple, to keep them to a given volume.

IMO a lot of this is job security on the practitioners part, vs removing and replacing with a better suited cvs. Though if the client is given the option and turns it down, thenI would rather a person do it who will do it with proper cuts then stubbed hack and slash.

These types of treatment should be the exception, not the rule.

Quite often we run into deadwooding that will lead to a defacto lionstailing. Pruning the tips in a manner that will reduce the leverage on the new moment of bend (which is caused by removing all the dampening mass of deadwood) can be very effective if it mimics the natural growth patterns. Then taking sprouts with a good angle of attachment and training them into new limbs....

The true arborist does look at the tree with an eye to the future, how will low limbs influence the rest of the crown. How are the major unions going to react to loading in the long term. How stems and limbs will interact with the landscape and buildings if allowed to grow unhindered....

To me your methods are a one size fits all treatment that... while not lazy in a physical sense, it is an awful lot of work...is lazy in a mental sense. There is no learning beyond your own practical experience.

This is what separates the true arborist (cert or no cert. I have none, though I am an ISA Life Member) from the tree trimmer who does whatever the client wants.

 

[treeseer]

Pruning the tips in a manner that will reduce the leverage on the new moment of bend (which is caused by removing all the dampening mass of deadwood) can be very effective if it mimics the natural growth patterns. Then taking sprouts with a good angle of attachment and training them into new limbs....

The true arborist does look at the tree with an eye to the future, how will low limbs influence the rest of the crown. How are the major unions going to react to loading in the long term. How stems and limbs will interact with the landscape and buildings if allowed to grow unhindered...

Unhindered, yeah. nO cut without a good reason.

:biggrinbounce2:

 

[Unknown Cutter]

i used to work for a guy who would top trees and purposefully spike the crap out of them and scuff up the leads with his saw. he said it was to promote new limbs to grow in those spots :crazy1:

 

[MonkeyMan_812]

:monkey:

Here we go, name calling again. Hey ATH, I top trees under/beside major transmission lines because the people that own the property the r.o.w. is on want them to stay. Its top them or remove them, no other choice. So, I am a hack huh? Same trees get topped every few years, still alive, still growing. Nothing wrong with topping trees for an excellent reason like this, topping trees for a view....I try to talk people into windows. Topping trees cause people are scared...I try to talk them into spiral pruning to reduce windsail. Time and a place for topping trees, think about it before you label.

I think you missed the conversation bud. They arent talking about topping trees for a good reason. They were talking about topping trees for no good reason. Topping in some cases is the practical thing to do , not so in other cases. The customer that we are speaking of was given multiple options but refused them all even though they were wise and practicle suggestions. The property owner wanted to top the trees just to top the trees. I am afraid you should understand what people are talking about before you comment.