Whos responsible?

[MasterBlaster]

This was touched upon in an earlier thread.

When someone runs over a saw, or backs the truck over a water meter, or crunches a fence because they were in too much of a hurry to set a pullrope proper, who's fault is it? Who pays?

I'm pretty hardcore on this, so I don't wanna bias the answers with what I would do.

How do ya'll handle these situations?

 

[Frans]

If it is your job, you pay. The trick is getting folks who care about what they are doing and feel and act responsibly. Not an easy task. If it is something that is stupid then I'll maybe have them pay but certainly check my own stupid meter to see if they should'nt be on the job in the first place. Remember the old saying: "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".
Frans

 

[TREETX]

Just bail, head to the store for some more beer and let the homeowner pay!!

Whoever is responsible. Not always who did it, but who is responsible.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by TREETX


Whoever is responsible. Not always who did it, but who is responsible.

Therein lies the rub!

 

[rumination]

an example

back when I was climbing in TX we had a job where the client asked us to shoot the chips into a pile on their property. the ground crew pretty much had it all cleaned up and chipped by the time I was out of the tree so I did not pay much attention to the chipper and did not notice that the ground crew had neglected to swivel the chute back into its proper position, and that it was sticking way out to the side. I was the designated driver of the chip truck, and sure enough as I was cruising back to the shop I heard a huge BWANG!! as the chipper chute fully flattened a speed limit sign. Totally bent the end of the chute up. Thank god it wasn't another vehicle I hit. Now, even though I was not the last one to use the chipper, we all agreed that as the driver it was my responsibility to check all aspects of the vehicle and any towed trailers or machinery before driving. That next paycheck sure was a small one!!

as for the speed limit sign...well, lets just say it was a hit and run

 

[MasterBlaster]

I vote that as a TRUE mistake, but only once.

 

[NebClimber]

MB:

You ask who is responsible. The simple answer is that the person who destroyed the property is legally responsible.

So if your employee drives your truck and accidentally destroys a 3rd party's property, the employee is legally responsible.

However - as to the third party - you are legally responsible as well if the guy who injured the property is your employee. The is known in the law as "respondeat superior." The acts of the employee are attributed to you, his employer. So a third party could sue the employee or the employer. Of course, generally it is the employer who is sued b/c the employer is usually insured and has assets to satisfy a judgment.

As between you and the employee, you could in turn sue the employee to recover any payment you were forced to make to the third party.

So, if Micky Mouse ran his golf cart over your snow-cone at Disney Land, would you rather sue the guy in the mouse suit or Disney. Most would sue Disney. If you recover a judgment against Disney, Disney could in turn sue Mickey. But most employees have no idea they are on the hook for this kind of liability. And most employers do not turn around and sue their employees. Hurts morale, hurts good will of business, and is usually futile b/c most employees can't pay a judgment b/c they aren't insured.

Now if you are Disney, and your employee is Micky, and Micky injures your property . . . yes, you can sue Micky.

Of course, these general rules are subject to numerous exceptions. For example, if your employee injures a fellow employee accidentally - now we are dealing with bodily injury rather than property injury - work comp law steps in and changes the rules. The injured employee recovers from you, and you alone. The employee who caused the injury to the fellow employee is immune.

Numerous other exceptions abound.

PS: Where is the spell check?

Steven

 

[Ax-man]

Some one (hired man) runs over my saw I pay

Some one (hired man) runs over meter I pay unless it goes beyond our deductible for our libility insurance.

Some one ( hired man) damages personal property I pay if under insurance deductible.


Employees are merely your representatives and when they do bonehead stunts, the employer has to take the heat for their actions.

It is illegal to make employees pay out of their checks for damage done to company property or to clients property.

But there is nothing illegal in cutting hours to make up the loss, or making their lives a night mare, so they quit. You can dismiss people for circumstances like you describe.

There are some things that occur that are really no ones fault, but they just happen. I could list some examples if you want.

Usually the finger gets pointed at the person who causes the accident, due to his actions that cause the damage, so that person has to pay, it isn't always fair but that is how it usually works.

How does it work for you guys that free lance when an accident occurs?? Do you take the heat or does the people a that contract for your service get the dirty end of the stick.

 

[Ax-man]

Hey Neb,

Sueing employees for damages is a news flash for me. I could take a year off if I could recover that money.

What good would it do to sue an employee, you could get a judgement in your favor, but the guy would still have to pay you, odds are the guy doesn't have any thing to pay you with as far as money, so your still out no matter what you do.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by NebClimber
MB:


PS: Where is the spell check?

In that dictionary on that table beside 'ya!

Right?

 

[NebClimber]

Ax-Man:

I agree it would do no good to sue the employee. From my first response:

"[M]ost employers do not turn around and sue their employees. Hurts morale, hurts good will of business, and is usually futile b/c most employees can't pay a judgment b/c they aren't insured."

I guess I should have added that most employees can't afford to pay the judgment anyway, and by the time you hire an attorney to recover $300 for a saw, you may as well not have bothered.

But what I wrote originally is indeed the law in the majority of U.S. jurisdictions.

And to me it makes sense. If, as a person just driving down the street, I injure your property, I would be responsible. This does not change just b/c I happen to be driving my employer's truck in the course of my employment. But the law has tweaked the rule a bit to allow the injured party to sue both me and my employer in this case. As to third parties, the law feels this is equitable b/c I am acting as an agent of my employer - i.e., my acts are my employer's acts. But as between me an my employer, the law feels this is not fair. I damaged the property, so why should I get to shift responsibility for my actions to my employer? The law says I can't. Therefore, if the employer has to pay a third party for debt, I have to pay the employer back. In reality, this almost never happens.

Regarding deducting this loss from the employees pay, I would guess - as you said - that this is not legal. Federal and state wage laws would apply, and these laws generally favor the employee. You would probably have to get a judgment and initiate formal garnishment proceedings in order to deduct losses from a paycheck.

Is the spell check right in front of me or what?

 

[Guy Meilleur]

I had a sub last month working the ground. I climbed the tree and turned it into a spar. I cut the notch and he gave me thumbs up that all was clear. I felled it and saw a red geyser. Hit a halfgallon jug of bar oil. whatamess. couldn't fill saws, ran to store for more, down time cleaning up too, bummer.

Worst bummer was it also hit his echo saw. rearhandle, not much good for topping , but still he said he needed to replace it. Took him to saw store and bought new echo, $280. I said, you were on ground, it was your saw, you are a sub, therefore your responsibility. but I feel bad, so I'll cover $80. of it.

He stalks off at the end of the day, says he needs to work somewhere he can make money. I feel like a chump for being out $80. Like rocky said, subs should be responsible.

ps I found another sub with a better attitude .

pps there is no spell check at this site. didn't they teach you to spell in law school? (this is chat not a trerm paper, don't sweat it.)

reminds me of a time I pruned a sourwood at the property line so my client could have sun on his tomatoes. Owner of sourwood trunk was a lawyer, threatened me with suit. I told him I'd be glad to draft a suit against his law school at $185./hr for failing to teach him about property law, and referred all further complaints to my legal advisor, who has four legs and chews bones.

I wpn't print what he said, this is a family forum.

 

[okietreedude1]

At the Co. I work for, the damaged goods are generally paid for by the employee. Depends on the expense. Its always kind of been an unwritten rule. More of an honor thing. There have been occasions where the boss covers it, but we usually dont hear the end of it either.

As for the chipper, we have had several occasions where the chipper has gotten hooked up wrong (missing hitchpin, ect.) and it has bounced off the truck. Fortunately never any accidents. It has been known since I started here long ago, the driver is responsible for his/her load. Whether that is a chipper, brush, logs, firewood, etc. PERIOD! That is made clear to all rookies early on in thier employment.

 

[Koa Man]

A tree company owner here (not me) had just purchased a new back pack blower still in the box. He drove to the job site, opened the door of his SUV, took the box out and set it on the ground right next to his vehicle. Turned around to close the door and one of his employees backing up a truck ran over the box and nearly killed him too. To say he was p*ss*d is putting it mildly. I tell my employees that if they put equipment in the drop zone of a tree and it gets damaged, they bought it. Still I need to tell them to move stuff. I told one guy if I didn't keep telling you to move stuff you would have bought enough equipment to start your own tree service. Only problem is that they would all be broken. Only once did I have an employee buy something, a new lowering line. I had told him a couple of times you need to untie the rope and pull it out of the way before cutting up the brush. He failed to do that and ended up cutting the rope that the 1/3 mark. He paid me for the rope.

 

[Lumberjack]

I have had the rope thing done before, and he didn't tell me, which upset me to say the least. I have had guys lay stuff down ect, and depending on what it is, how they tell me, and the frequency of them doing it depends on if they pay. If they don't want to pay, when it was obviously their fault, they try to lie about it, don't accept responsibility, and don't offer to pay (biggie), they either pay for it, or if they don't like that, then I tell them that they can take it home, without pay, and I will never ask them to work again.

To me, offering to pay is a big plus, as well as telling me what they did, like a man.

Carl

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Unless employees are on profit sharing, they don't pay. Whoever takes the risk, the employer, reaps the rewards, or losses. That's part of business.

OK now MB. You've heard from us, spill the beans. We can all tell that something is up your sleave.

Tom

 

[MasterBlaster]

Ok, here come the beans!

I was talking to a friend who was upset cause one of his two helpers lost his portawrap. He didn't know what to do, and neither did I. I told him that if he knew which of the two lost it I would make him buy me another, or he could quit. But he wasn't sure who it was, so he's just gonna have to suck it up.

A couple of years ago I ran over somebodys fairly new 026. I took it in to get repaired, and bought that guy a new 026. He didn't even know about it until he saw the brand-new 026. He said I didn't have to do that, but I feel I did. I kept the one I ran over - it was the most expensive 026 I ever owned!

If I screw something up, I'm gonna make it right.

I've allways felt (and I think I read a post here somewhere) that since you can't really make an employee pay, you could even it up a bit with some kind of bonus system. Say, end of the year xmas bonuses. If stuff lost, smashed, or stolen is above some set limit, it comes evenly out of everyones bonus. If that means no bonus, so be it. Maybe next year they will look after the equipment better!

Like the profit sharing you spoke of, Tom.

I hate GAF'fers!!!

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
one of his two helpers lost his portawrap. he wasn't sure who it was, so he's just gonna have to suck it up.
Barring torture, that's the only way to look at it. time to reinforce security measures--boss's responsibility.

If stuff lost, smashed, or stolen is above some set limit, it comes evenly out of everyones bonus.

Good incentive system. I'd add safety in there too.

 

[TREETX]

Seriously, John Doe Climber should have made sure HIS gear was in the truck.

I have had my workers leave stuff. It is a bad situation to be in. Bad if it is lost and you have to replace it, also bad if you have to retrieve your gear after a customer tells you that you just left it there.....

I hate the idea of rewarding people for doing what the are ALREADY paid to do.

Instead, why not promote those that exhibit responsibility??

A certain amount of these things just happen. That is a numbers game you run - a cost of doing business.

When they happen with the same person, that is when the problems come in....

I used to urge my help to do side jobs on the weekends with their own gear. I thought they would learn how it isn't a get rich quick job. No more. I noticed that gear started vanishing then....

I had a sub bend his power pruner in half. I already told him to climb it instead of lopping a 12" limb in one cut w/PP.

He whined and wanted me to help I settled it by telling him if he did it my way, the PP would be safe in the truck.

In so many ways have not missed running a crew the last few weeks.

 

[blue]

what's a xmas bonus?our boss is now known as scrouge