Will felling and leaving the tree for a couple of weeks help dry it out?

[smoothED]

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_rn450.pdf
Read this, it came from a guy on hearth,in page 2 and 5 they did a wither test,their result was 10% loss of moisture leaving limbs intact.There's your test.It can't hurt to try it.:smoking:

 

[Wood Doctor]

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_rn450.pdf
Read this, it came from a guy on hearth,in page 2 and 5 they did a wither test,their result was 10% loss of moisture leaving limbs intact.There's your test.It can't hurt to try it.:smoking:

Here's the "bottom line" of that article in my book. First paragraph summary:
Trees that were severed at the stump and left to dry in tree length form, complete with branches and leaves, however, dried slower than firewood cut to length, stacked, and top-covered or placed in the temporary solar kilns.
Drop tree, cut it to length, split it, stack it.

 

[turnkey4099]

Quote: http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_rn450.pdf
Read this, it came from a guy on hearth,in page 2 and 5 they did a wither test,their result was 10% loss of moisture leaving limbs intact.There's your test.It can't hurt to try it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the "bottom line" of that article in my book. First paragraph summary:
Trees that were severed at the stump and left to dry in tree length form, complete with branches and leaves, however, dried slower than firewood cut to length, stacked, and top-covered or placed in the temporary solar kilns.
Drop tree, cut it to length, split it, stack it.

Good example of 'quote mining' The first one was looking for results justifying it and managed to omit the important part.

Yours points out the unpleasant fact that 'withering' is a waste of time. Just as I expected.

Harry K

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Well they confirmed trees that lay for the entire drying season don't get dry enough. It only dried to a MC of 49% They never stated what it was to begin with but the other samples ranged from 73% -108% MC. It's a shame that the tree dried out more than halfway but they never checked it again till the end of the season . It could have done that much drying in just a couple of days. They never checked. Well, they did check, but that was 117 days after the leaves withered not the day after. I seriously doubt it lost that much through the butt end, bark or closed off twigs. It had to exit someplace. The leaves possibly ?


No mention was given what the MC was once the leaves had withered. According to the article the bark is waterproof. The wood had to lose between 24% and 59% MC either through the butt or the stem tips between day 0 and day 120.

All that article really proved was that solar kilns in Alaska weren't very affective and trees that never get cut up didn't dry below 49% in 1 drying season there.

Thanks for the link though

Back to the original question . Do trees dry out faster with the leaves on a week or 2 instead of felling them and processing the wood immediately.

We aren't talking about leaving the leaves on a year.:deadhorse:
And we aren't talking about leaving it whole till ready to use.:deadhorse:
Just until they are withered. Then process normally, minus the dead leaves and possibly half the MC.

I'm starting to like this idea.
What would I really have to lose ? 1 weeks drying time for a load or 2 ?
What might I have to gain ? Half my drying time for the rest of my life?

OK , I get it, this doesn't work for you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to cut firewood and it doesn't take a nuclear physicist to stack it in the sun and let it dry.

The roots provide water and nutrients for the leaves by way of the trees trunk and limbs.
Leaves evaoprate most of the water they recieve.
The roots supply the water through wicking in the tree's cells.
The water is wicked against gravity to reach the leaves.
Laying on it's side water doesnt have to overcome gravity to get there.
The leaves have an easier time aquiring water and nutrients with the tree on it's side.
Cut from the stump, the water supply in the trunk and limbs will become exhausted supplying the leaves.
Within a week the leaves wither and drop off.
Thousands of leaves present a greater surface area than the cut ends of 20-30 rounds.
Water evaporates faster from the greater exposed surface area.
Stacking the processed firewood maximizes the reduced surface area of the remaining wood.
Leaving the leaves on one week pryor to processing just might reduce the drying time more than a marginal amount.

It makes sense to bring it home when cut into rounds.
It makes sense to stack it as soon as it is processed.
It makes sense to maximise the surface area for sun and wind exposure to compete the drying process. (some will just pile it and that works for them)

I am speaking English, please tell me which part doesnt make sense.

Is it the part that breaks from the tradition of processing the wood the moment it hits the ground ?

 

[SWI Don]

KsWoodsMan

That is pretty much my take on it. If you can let the tree wither before you chop it up.


Don

 

[pacman]

Nothing has better drying time than cutting and split.

 

[Wet1]

Well they confirmed trees that lay for the entire drying season don't get dry enough. It only dried to a MC of 49% They never stated what it was to begin with but the other samples ranged from 73% -108% MC. It's a shame that the tree dried out more than halfway but they never checked it again till the end of the season . It could have done that much drying in just a couple of days. They never checked. Well, they did check, but that was 117 days after the leaves withered not the day after. I seriously doubt it lost that much through the butt end, bark or closed off twigs. It had to exit someplace. The leaves possibly ?


No mention was given what the MC was once the leaves had withered. According to the article the bark is waterproof. The wood had to lose between 24% and 59% MC either through the butt or the stem tips between day 0 and day 120.

All that article really proved was that solar kilns in Alaska weren't very affective and trees that never get cut up didn't dry below 49% in 1 drying season there.

Thanks for the link though

Back to the original question . Do trees dry out faster with the leaves on a week or 2 instead of felling them and processing the wood immediately.

We aren't talking about leaving the leaves on a year.:deadhorse:
And we aren't talking about leaving it whole till ready to use.:deadhorse:
Just until they are withered. Then process normally, minus the dead leaves and possibly half the MC.

I'm starting to like this idea.
What would I really have to lose ? 1 weeks drying time for a load or 2 ?
What might I have to gain ? Half my drying time for the rest of my life?

OK , I get it, this doesn't work for you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to cut firewood and it doesn't take a nuclear physicist to stack it in the sun and let it dry.

The roots provide water and nutrients for the leaves by way of the trees trunk and limbs.
Leaves evaoprate most of the water they recieve.
The roots supply the water through wicking in the tree's cells.
The water is wicked against gravity to reach the leaves.
Laying on it's side water doesnt have to overcome gravity to get there.
The leaves have an easier time aquiring water and nutrients with the tree on it's side.
Cut from the stump, the water supply in the trunk and limbs will become exhausted supplying the leaves.
Within a week the leaves wither and drop off.
Thousands of leaves present a greater surface area than the cut ends of 20-30 rounds.
Water evaporates faster from the greater exposed surface area.
Stacking the processed firewood maximizes the reduced surface area of the remaining wood.
Leaving the leaves on one week pryor to processing just might reduce the drying time more than a marginal amount.

It makes sense to bring it home when cut into rounds.
It makes sense to stack it as soon as it is processed.
It makes sense to maximise the surface area for sun and wind exposure to compete the drying process. (some will just pile it and that works for them)

I am speaking English, please tell me which part doesnt make sense.

Is it the part that breaks from the tradition of processing the wood the moment it hits the ground ?

That's pretty much how I see it as well. Since I can drop them much faster than I can process them, I'm going to do this as I have absolutely nothing to loose (the wood is secure where I'm cutting right now).

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Nothing has better drying time than cutting and split.

Maybe that's what "they" want us to think.

I guess a heated kiln is useless ? J/K

Any one gone to the trouble of checking moisture content in the Fall after the leaves have dropped compared to MC's in the Spring during the rainy season ? Fall wood, just after the leaves drop, should be drier.

In a pinch I have burned fresh cut winter wood and it was as good or better than what I had cut around the time of wheat harvest. Always rains just after harvest here. Both sets had been processed the same day as it was cut, within a week of each other. I never paid much attention to any blowdowns that set for a few days before getting to them. Blow downs happen usually in the Spring here. I attributed the fact that it was ready to burn to it having all Summer to cure. Some of the fresh cut and processed wood from that time needed just a bit longer to cure. It isn't something we think about when working elbows to @ssholes trying to finish one job to start another.

It would be interesting to see if anyone with a meter has gone to the trouble to check the MC of the little stuff and the rounds at the time it was cut then come back in a week when the leaves were dead to check it again about a foot or 2 from the cut end. Then compare that to the wood in the stack they have drying. It wouldn't take more than a week to find out.

Kindling from the top of the brush pile usually gets pretty dry pretty quick for me. Except the stuff on the bottom where the sun and wind hasn't gotten to the leaves.

I have offered many reason why and how it might help the drying time. I haven't seen anything other than "That's the way to do it." or "That's how I was taught and that's the way it was taught to them." Could it be the reason for this started out that the safest way to keep your wood was to get it home to allow it to dry ? Much easier to bring cut pieces home than to drag all of it in one piece.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

That's pretty much how I see it as well. Since I can drop them much faster than I can process them, I'm going to do this as I have absolutely nothing to loose (the wood is secure where I'm cutting right now).

More than a few people might be interested in the findings, or not.

I dont know if it would make any difference to start with a high MC wood like Elm or Poplar or to start with an Oak or Ash. High MC trees do seem to take longer to wither. I'm cutting in Hackberry, Mullberry and Locust tomorrow. Some Elm is near the road. I can drag any of them whole back to where I am cutting with the Super-Duty, for this.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I can spare a bit of gas to drag a 20" DBH 200 yards to find out. I dont look forward to splitting Elm but... it all burns if dry enough.

Any trained Arborists happen to know, or care to comment, at what MC the leaves wither or drop on a stressed tree ? It's worth a rep point . LOL seriously !

 

[SWI Don]

Here is the reputable source I had seen in the past. It is a publication from the University of Nebraska and has been cited here before as it has a nice wood species chart.

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/g1554/build/g1554.pdf

On pg 4 it has the following.


Proper splitting and storage are important to the seasoning
process. Start harvesting and seasoning your firewood
early; the fall is not the best time to build a firewood
supply for the forthcoming winter. It is best to cut your
firewood one year before you will need it. Some firewood
cutters fell trees in the summer and leave them in place with
the branches and leaves intact for two to four weeks. The
branches and leaves draw moisture from the wood, accelerating
drying.


Don

 

[bushinspector]

bushinspector : If a tree is designed to move water from the trunk to the smaller branches and then to the leaves, wouldn't the trunk would have to run out of water first before the leaves reacted to the drought ? In theory the small branches would be the wettest part of the tree when the leaves dropped off. Maybe the trunk shuts off the flow instead of just running out first. I doubt the mechanism is that complicated. It would make for a good dersign. As I understand it the trees metabolism is slow enough that by the time the leaves got the message to drop off there wouldnt be much moisture left to support them. Dropping off woud be a natural reaction to drought instead of responce to a communicated message.
__________________
I don't know much theory, but it seems to me the small stuff dries much quicker than the stem.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Here is the reputable source I had seen in the past. It is a publication from the University of Nebraska and has been cited here before as it has a nice wood species chart.

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/g1554/build/g1554.pdf

On pg 4 it has the following.


Proper splitting and storage are important to the seasoning
process. Start harvesting and seasoning your firewood
early; the fall is not the best time to build a firewood
supply for the forthcoming winter. It is best to cut your
firewood one year before you will need it. Some firewood
cutters fell trees in the summer and leave them in place with
the branches and leaves intact for two to four weeks. The
branches and leaves draw moisture from the wood, accelerating
drying.


Don

Sw1 Don : I trust the article you mentioned, thank you for posting the link. I caught 2 things right off from what it said.

Proper splitting and storage are important to the seasoning
process. Start harvesting and seasoning your firewood early
This is a reliable method, accepted by wodcutter everywhere.

The branches and leaves draw moisture from the wood, accelerating drying.
Kind of a different approach than we are used to. Once they stop drawing moisture it is no longer to our advantage to leave it this way. It is time to cut it, split it, stack it and wait for it to finish drying. That's what were are trying to figure out, is how advatantagous it is, for anyone willing to try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

The article didn't say how much it was accelerated but I will take any gain I can get to dry it without it costing me money or wood. SW1 Don, I'm not sure where you stand on it or if you are taking a "wait and see" approach. Processing it immediately is a safe bet and the risk of wood thieves getting your wood is less in your wood shed than out in a pasture.

bushinspector : when you said the small stuff, were you reffering to the brush with leaves intact ? or the 3-4 inch stuff in the stack that has a greater surface area than density when exposed to the coals in a fire?

The brushpile is always ready to burn right away, long before the splits are ready.

Gotta go, its time to cut some more for next year.

 

[SWI Don]

KsWoodsMan

I would leave them a couple of weeks if it works out. Most of the trees I cut down are during the winter and already dead. Only a few fenceline trees might get cut while they are active. Most of my cutting is in the winter after the crops are in.

The guys I cut with farm and the trees we cut are usually based on location i.e. easy to get in and out. Trees on the edges of fields where you can drive up, drop, buck and load with out having to carry it are the favorites. Generally the ground is frozen when we are cutting.

I have several big oaks I need to get bucked up an hauled out but they will require either I cut the fence and pull it out or buck it up and throw over the fence (24-30 dbh trees). There has been easier stuff to get so it's been gotten first.

Don

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Thats about how most of my cutting goes this time of year. The path in and out runs right next to the old fence row. The brush has to be dragged to ther other side of the road. It can be piled as high and long as we want. but we cant block the access. The neighbor doesnt mind that we take it off the edge of his wheat field so long as we dont fall any into the wheat and lay it down. So far so good. I have a couple of whole Elms drying like this on the far side of the brushpile. along with a few good stems off the 50 ft Mullberry bush and some smaller Hackberry. I held off on the first two because it doesnt cure out as fast as Hack. If this gives me any gains I will be back in wood for Febuary with the Mullberry and mid December with the Hackberry. We get plenty of Sun here and right now is no exception.

The wood has gone quick this year, I hope this makes enough different to knock a month off of total time to dry for the Hackberry.

I don't know that this will make any difference or not. Something just clicked when I heard the question a second time. After remembering how much water evaporates from a tree in a single day, I just had to mention the possibility exist for this to happen. Even if it is against popular belief I wasn't going to just dispose of the idea because I hadnt tried it and couldnt find actual proof otherwise.

I gave up trying to explain things on several posts before. Ideas I knew from experience to be true. This one I'm not convinced on completely, not because I dont think it will work, but because I haven't test it. I would probably accept the finding of a verifiable souce. if their tests were specifically intended to test this idea. I intend to find out for myself before letting it drop on the word of someone that hasn't actually tested this specifically. I'll share what I find. If it makes me unpopular that I cure firewood in half the time to the same MC so-be-it. I didn't set out to win any popularity contest when I joined here. Still not worried about it to this day.

Still curious if anyone in the know can share how low the MC of the tree can be, before it becomes stressed enough to drop it's leaves. Carts are available that show the average MC for select species. I just havent found anything that points specifically to the MC of the stem when the leaves drop from drought stress.

Enjoy your Labor Day everyone. Even those that think I'm nuts

 

[Wet1]

Update...

Withing seems to make a significant difference!

I dropped four trees a little over two weeks ago, two red oak and two white oak. On one of each I limbed all the brush off and the remaining two were left as they fell. I also bucked one 36" round and one 18" round off the end of each trunk when they were dropped.

I went back yesterday to buck everything and take it home. The leaves were completely wilted. I was surprised to see the trees there were left intact and allowed to wither had noticeably less moisture inside. The two trees that had been limbed were very moist inside, as you would expect to see if a tree was dropped and bucked the same day. When I cut the 18" and 36" rounds (the ones I cut when the trees were felled), they looked just about as wet inside as the trees that were limbed. The withered trees by comparison did not have the typical excess moisture.

While this certainly wasn't a scientific experiment, I was surprised to see how much dryer the withered trees were compared to not only the trees that had been limbed, but also how much dryer there were than the rounds that had been left sitting. I do know that from this point on, I will be allowing trees to wither if at all possible. Sure they might dry faster if they are completely cut and split, but since I very seldom have the time to do this, felling the trees and letting them sit until I can get back to them for processing seems to make a difference.


BTW, the location I'm cutting at makes it impossible for me to get my dump trailer in and out of there, so I have to maximize my loads using only my truck. My neighbor said to me "wow, I'll bet you have almost a 1/2 cord there"... I know after moving load after load of green oak my back was telling me there just might be a little more than a 1/2 a cord in each of these stacked loads!

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Thanks for that update. We have had regular rain from Gustove and Ike here. The couple I dropped and let lay were noticably dryer than their counterparts that were bucked immediately.
With the weather like it was it wasnt a definitive experiment. The bucked logs were left uncovered and exposed to the rain. The idea was for them to stay dry. I figured on making sure it was repeatable for me before posting. It is just now getting dry enough to actually get in with a truck to take any of it out. Just glad that wasnt my only place to cut.

Because of the thorns and choking hazzard from hedge balls for her cattle, the widow won't let me do this with her Hedge. If I had known it was going to rain so long I would have dropped a lot more other trees for later processing.

This method might not work in every instance of treecutting. In the right place and for firewood I think it holds merit to shorten the drying time this way. I guess if we wanted to stick with completely traditional methods of firewood cutting we'd be out there with an oxcart, a wheel barrow, an axe and bowsaw. If it will save me time and go easier on my back I'll give it a whirl.

Headed out there now to gather my spoils.

BTW nice load of blocks there.

 

[lazermule]

My situation may be different than others, but I only cut dead trees. I mostly cut red oaks that have succumbed to oak wilt around here and I try to let them stand dead for 1-3 years. Usually by this time, they have lost most of the bark and have dried well. Whatever bark hasn't been lost usually comes off in the splitting process, and barkless oak is a hot $commodity$ around here for restaurants with wood fired ovens.

With this method, I can cut right into the burning season and the wood is ready when it his the ground.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Makes good sense to me. Except for felling it, I like standing dead stuff. Took a nice Red Elm the other day that made a half cord of straight stuff. You gotta watch out though even dead trees can fight back. Had more than one try to drop branches on me. None of it is safe till the cold ashes of it's remains are spead out in the garden.

Took a standing dead Red Elm the other day. I gotta tell ya, that cinnamon wood sure looks purdy , all busting out over the top of the stack.


Mmmmm, Mmmm Mmmm I cant wait to take them offa there.

 

[Soilarch]

I'm so new to firewood it's funny that I'm posting on a technical thread like this. But I thought I'd share an experience I had today.

The woods I cut in is nearly all hickory (half is shagbark) and red oak. I've cut several cords of shag and red oak already. Today I cut up a hickory that I by chance let wither. Now, I "believe" it was a red hickory instead of shag. Can't find any info on whether red is lighter than shagbark. Leave were fully withered and a dark brown. About a week's drying, but memory gets foggy.

When cutting it was noticeably drier...and it was much much lighter than hickory normally is. (I know this because with my current setup I pick up EVERY log by hand and carry it usually about 20yards) I'll split it tomorrow and see what I think.

I sure thought it was a shagbark, didn't really give it a second thought until it was on the ground and I noticed it had serrated leafs!!!! So from my modest research it's a red hickory?


Of course, the catch 22 that has been mentioned on every page so far....is would it be just as dry after a week in the pile.

Either way, with my current way of doing things, I plan on trying to keep my felling a week ahead of my bucking. Picking up light logs was a big treat today. Can't hurt gas mileage either.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Picking up light logs was a big treat today. Can't hurt gas mileage either.

Amen to that ! Lighter means more wood goes on quicker and it's easier on the back.

If it saves time and doesn't make for more work , I'm for it.