Working hurricanes

[TreeClimber57]

This has turned into a very good thread. Most educational discussion I have read on here in some time. I'm enjoying the discussion. opcorn:

I agree. A lot of good info, and a lot of work that personally I have never experienced. I have worked some high wind damage (but nothing like the 'canes of the southern U.S.), a half dozen tornado's and as many ice storms (one fairly large one about 10 years ago).

But this is excellent, good input from all. I have been sitting back, and simply enjoying.

 

[treeseer]

Some recent studies have shown that the CODIT event actually extends farther out into the limb then the collar, discolored wood in a cone shape.

I've been observing this, but if there's a un/published study I'd love to have the backup. The line demarking these cones is thick black and shiny--lotsa phenols or whateveryoucallem.

Here's a recent journal work on reduction pruning (free for the searching from ISA); some results applicable to this thread.

http://auf.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=3013&volume=33&issue=5&Type=1

o and a look at white oak's response to heading vs. "1/3 Rule" cutting back to the origin. pics 3 yrs after ice. same portion of same tree same size branch damaged. Callus robust on one, poor on the other.

I rest my case. I'm ready to drink a case!

You see, the fine print in the Natural Target Pruning book admits that there are no collars on codoms. Trouble is, many if not most forks in the upper crown are codom, and not secondary branch forks with collars. Therefore, the "1/3 Rule" never did apply to pruning this part of the tree, storm or no storm!

Yet it has been us treeguys' mantra for decades, allowing for few if any exceptions.

We gotta read the fine print; we gotta read the tree.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

You see, the fine print in the Natural Target Pruning book admits that there are no collars on codoms. Trouble is, many if not most forks in the upper crown are codom, and not secondary branch forks with collars.

And on many large low limbs that are derived from buds contemporaneous with the original terminal. They are just like a codom, down to the conjoined pith.

 

[treevet]

I

without adding the additional stress of lopping every broken branch back to origin.



This is the basis of my reluctance to make every cut a collar cut. Most stubs will flush out to some extant, adding to the available energy for the chemical changes that most of CODIT really is. Very few species will drop these stubs in less then five years if the tree sheds them from lack of production. Once the cut is made, the tree is stuck with that wound; if the tree "wants" to shed it, then it can compartmentalize the limb in a more natural way. Some recent studies have shown that the CODIT event actually extends farther out into the limb then the collar, discolored wood in a cone shape.

That all said, it is is just a few limbs that need removal, and there is sufficient dynamic mass near by, I see no need to set the customer up for another visit. That is, unless you will be there in 3-4 years anyways as part of your normal pruning schedule.

For the past few years I have been leaving stubs on large limb removals when on my clients revolving accounts, especially in older trees that are in a state of dynamic equilibrium where we are concerned that any pruning may shift them into senescence.

The issue at hand here is "to leave large diameter stubs, or not?" and is it beneficial from the standpoint of "protecting" (aiding compartmentalizing) Wall 4, in the eventuality of..... 1. The big stub dies (then remove it) or 2. The Big stub becomes involved with decay threatening to be a vector into the main/parent stem (then remove it). The beneficial aspect being that it will initiate Wall 4 without exposing the main stem to pathogens if successful (in your scenario) and it puts forth your described "flush" of growth and can become part of a storm compromised canopy. If not successful, it protected the parent stem from infection by this "cone shaped boundary" you describe (that unfortunately will have to be removed/severed if the stub fails).

A few months ago I emailed a contact of mine that is lead researcher on EAB at Ohio State U. and told him I suspected EAB in an ash. The signs were there.... in the top (important...top, where they start) of the canopy borer holes that might have a vague d shape to them. The tree had storm damage a week ago and limbs were hanging all over it. After digging around in a sample with a knife and not finding any EAB larvae I contacted him and he told me he felt it was a bark beetle attacking a weakened tree. I said this tree was broken up just a week ago and was perfectly healthy prior to this damage (also leading me to suspect EAB which attack completely healthy trees).

I asked him could these insects recognize a weakened system just a few days after it happened. His answer was yes (a researcher mind you). As for EAB, I have found that they can sense weakened trees (they go after them even more than a healthy one that they will also attack) by an "odor emitted by the phloem" according to research. How do decay causing orgs recognize a weakened system and is the more weakened system (stub as opposed to parent) attacked in priority. I would think so. If a tree is injured....it is infected. Parts of trees are obviously attacked preferentially.

I am sure that decay causing orgs are on a weakened system, such as a stub "right now" after injury and successions of attack begin. Much more than a vital branch cut back or broken in the one third parameter. Also in most instances the big stub will be on a mature or over mature tree "in a state of dynamic equilibrium" with lower energy reserves to begin with (for compartmentalization which is where this energy comes from).

The obtaining a "flush" of growth or aiding the tree in the formation of Wall 4 (which you will cut into if the stub dies) is the wrong reason to leave these stubs IMO and has no basis in research. Especially if you 2 are advocating ignoring the thing for years. The WHOLE consideration is decay. And as Gilman says, decay will enter the stub and cracking will occur (just like in topping/heading cuts caused by ram's horns I assume). The cracking will further aid in the entrance of decay causing orgs.

I think your standard practice (for the past few years) of leaving big stubs on mature trees when you feel they are in "a state of dynamic equilibrium" because you feel removing the large diameter, short stub will "make them grow old?" (Webster's....senescence) is misguided IMHO.

Physiological health is no more important consideration than structural integrity in keeping a tree alive (maybe less with targets in proximity). I would opt to remove the big dia stub "most" of the time.....but not always.

About 6 years ago I had a 510 year old Bur oak leader fall on a residence when a cable I did not install failed when hit with a downshear. An 18 ton crane blew black smoke when I attempted to get it off the roof. When in the tree I found that 3 more co doms had separated and 1 was looming 140 feet above the middle of the already partly crushed house. I brought in a 55 ton crane and we cut the tree in half to laterals, not even snapping one twig of 1 lateral on large diameter cut backs. The tree has a massive,lush regenerated canopy but I have not gotten the client to pay me to check decay or maintain the sprouts and laterals (like I had them initially agree to do) and I am not doing it for free. My guess is I will find a lot of decay in the canopy. Wish I could report on it. It was a 10 thousand dollar job and I risked my life doing it (more than ever before). If anyone wants a picture I will oblige.

I think it is of value to correct, again, in this thread, the improper usage of the acronym "CODIT" which is a "model for compartmentalization" and not a biological process. Compartmentalization takes a few more finger strikes, but it is the right thing to do.

 

[oldirty]

any chance we can do this more often? this sharing of legit tree bs? good stuff. all these big words got me beating up wikipedia.

thanks for the pics too. hey treevet, start a thread with the pics of that job on that big ol bur oak. i'd like to see.

i'm a little scared of senescence myself.

and just to clear this up in my mind. node. up in the canopy on the smoother bark on a limb. that would be the bump in the wood that you can feel on the surface, right? thats where you'd "stub" it? first good spot after the break?

 

[treevet]

any chance we can do this more often? this sharing of legit tree bs? good stuff. all these big words got me beating up wikipedia.

thanks for the pics too. hey treevet, start a thread with the pics of that job on that big ol bur oak. i'd like to see.

i'm a little scared of senescence myself.

and just to clear this up in my mind. node. up in the canopy on the smoother bark on a limb. that would be the bump in the wood that you can feel on the surface, right? thats where you'd "stub" it? first good spot after the break?

Man, OD, I think it is fantastic that you are interested. You might want to pick up the "Dictionary of Arboriculture" or Treeseer can give you a link to the online version. He was involved in development of the dict.

Another source is "A New Tree Biology Dictionary" by Alex Shigo and....from that...

"Nodes and internodes...A node is the position on a stem or trunk that was occupied by the terminal bud and its associated buds. After the terminal bud develops and a new terminal bud forms at the tip of the stem, the stem tissues between the position of the old terminal bud and the new terminal bud is called the internode; the stem between the nodes..........."

 

[oldirty]

Man, OD, I think it is fantastic that you are interested. "

can't try and pretend to be the reaper for ever. thats not the only gig in this game plus the more you can do the more you can earn, that and all this rope climbing ive been doing the past couple years has led me to a different tree respect. i kinda want to know whats up with what i am doing now.

but if you pull out the hand snips and tell me we have an arborvitae hedge that is surrounding the yard and we need to beat it back and take 3ft out of it, i'll be in the truck taking a nap. wake me up when you take lunch so i can clean up your mess.

edit: thanks for the reading recommendations.

 

[stihlhere]

not to interupt but

1st :jawdrop: really enjoyed that wating for more.
recently removed hollow limb from pin oak the decay had just reached the trunk at the top of limb, limb being about 12 at collar with decay 1inch in and occupying 50% of top of top of collar. what can be done if any to aid in healing or at this point is it to late? sorry to interupt just trying to learn.

 

[tree md]

Man, OD, I think it is fantastic that you are interested. You might want to pick up the "Dictionary of Arboriculture" or Treeseer can give you a link to the online version. He was involved in development of the dict.

Another source is "A New Tree Biology Dictionary" by Alex Shigo and....from that...

"Nodes and internodes...A node is the position on a stem or trunk that was occupied by the terminal bud and its associated buds. After the terminal bud develops and a new terminal bud forms at the tip of the stem, the stem tissues between the position of the old terminal bud and the new terminal bud is called the internode; the stem between the nodes..........."

I'd rep you if I could TV but I got to spread some around first. Same goes for you Guy.

I'm going to take some pics this week of some pruning I have done on a tree over the past 5 years or so. Every cut I have made has completely calloused over within 5 years except for the recent storm damage repair I have done. I could use some advice on how to proceed. I left some large stubs because the trees lost at or near 1/3 of crown and all have resprouted. I figured it would be better to leave something for regrowth than to take too much out of an already stressed tree. Looking forward to some advice. Great input from the arborists!

 

[treeseer]

stihlhere and all the way to keep this going is to take and post pictures. i'll put up more of former misnamed "sugar sticks" that have totally closed over, but first let's see some from you all.

Dave I totally believe in/agree with the odor-attractant thing but please tell me how an 8" cut on the end of a branch will bring in more rot than a 12" cut at the origin, which has lots more aromatic phloem and double the infection court. Those cuts lead to far more cracking, and make the whole trunk "sugar". I think the pics indicate that, as Gilman agrees, heading cuts are often the way to go on damaged trees.

I'm still waiting for your instructions on how that tree should have been pruned. You can use Paint or whatever. here it is attached again for your convenience.

re clients, it took a while for that oak's owners to get us back for restoration, after a few gentle reminders. I was ready to reclimb it and take the pics for free but thankfully got paid for restoring the tree. one visit 5 years later, done until ~2013, normal pruning cycle.

OD re nodes, look closely at the trees. the article spells out the signs: bumps, bulges, bends etc. re hand pruners on hedges, that's a good idea for another thread. Post Pictures. for general reading material--just use the search function here http://www.isa-arbor.com/members/joaOpenAccess.aspx The dictionary/glossary is in the site too--it's free even for nonmembers who badmouth ISA without looking to see what it is all about.

TCI is not as deep or as well archived but look for April 2003 http://www.treecareindustry.org/Public/pubs_tci_magazine.htm

Post pictures. If they are awesome they may earn $25 and eternal fame when and if the followup article is printed. Later this year I hope.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

any chance we can do this more often? this sharing of legit tree bs? good stuff. all these big words got me beating up wikipedia.

thanks for the pics too. hey treevet, start a thread with the pics of that job on that big ol bur oak. i'd like to see.

i'm a little scared of senescence myself.

and just to clear this up in my mind. node. up in the canopy on the smoother bark on a limb. that would be the bump in the wood that you can feel on the surface, right? thats where you'd "stub" it? first good spot after the break?

I would prefer to say "head back" for most cases, unless it is a secondary branching with no obvious collar.

You've been infected with the disease of fascination, my friend! It has transcended from a job to a vocation, now there is a little voice in your head calling you to actually look at the trees. Soon you will come to see it not as your trade, but your Profession. Next thing you know, you will not have anyone to talk to at parties, because all you talk about is trees.

 

[treevet]

Dave I totally believe in/agree with the odor-attractant thing but please tell me how an 8" cut on the end of a branch will bring in more rot than a 12" cut at the origin, which has lots more aromatic phloem and double the infection court. Those cuts lead to far more cracking, and make the whole trunk "sugar". I think the pics indicate that, as Gilman agrees, heading cuts are often the way to go on damaged trees.

I'm still waiting for your instructions on how that tree should have been pruned. You can use Paint or whatever. here it is attached again for your convenience.



OD re nodes, look closely at the trees. the article spells out the signs: bumps, bulges, bends etc.

I think the odor attractant is of quality and not of quantity. I think this odor of the phloem indicates a system/limb/stub in decline and therefore low resistance in the walls of compartmentalization. This is conjecture, even with researchers, there is so much we do not understand about trees.

You keep pressing me to comment on your pruning that, I believe you and Sanborn did. This has no relevance to the 12" dia stub that you both advocate leaving and later ignoring (even tho it may have flush growth they are usually found to be involved with decay). If I have to it, at first glance appears to me that you took TOO MUCH off and not too little as you assumed I would say. Maybe it is because you are a 60 year climber (like me) and Sanborn is a giant climber. Or maybe lighter cuts were not accessible to any climber. My inclination would be to use a bucket to make those lighter cuts possible and at the same have better access to appropriate angles for the ntp cuts.

As for the node issue....it is obvious to anyone who ever pruned large trees that the larger the dia stubs you are leaving the more difficult, under most circumstances, it is to even recognize a node.

 

[BlackenedTimber]

It has been said, but this is a great post. Really helps the time pass at the ol' Batch Plant in the nowhere West Virginia.

 

[oldirty]

I would prefer to say "head back" for most cases, unless it is a secondary branching with no obvious collar.

You've been infected with the disease of fascination, my friend! It has transcended from a job to a vocation, now there is a little voice in your head calling you to actually look at the trees. Soon you will come to see it not as your trade, but your Profession. Next thing you know, you will not have anyone to talk to at parties, because all you talk about is trees.

i already love the game jp. truly and deeply. but its the not knowing part that is killing me. gonna work on that.

good thread boys!

 

[treeseer]

Dave you are throwing out a lot of good theoretical responses, but look at those white oak pictures. Ten tons of anthropogenic theory do not outweigh that evidence of the tree's own responses, and preferences.

Treesponses. Hmm...

I think the odor attractant is of quality and not of quantity. I think this odor of the phloem indicates a system/limb/stub in decline and therefore low resistance in the walls of compartmentalization. This is conjecture, even with researchers, there is so much we do not understand about trees.

That's for sure; a pound of conjecture plus $.75 will buy you a newspaper. Plus, the cut ends would not emit the "decline" pheromone, because the trees are not in decline pre-storm.

the 12" dia stub that you both advocate leaving and later ignoring (even tho it may have flush growth they are usually found to be involved with decay).

Sure, but a lot of wood is 'involved with decay" that has no significant impact on its strength, now or ever.

As for the node issue....it is obvious to anyone who ever pruned large trees that the larger the dia stubs you are leaving the more difficult, under most circumstances, it is to even recognize a node.

Yes, very true, so thank you for providing another good reason to cut back damaged branches at the smallest possible diameter, the first good node.

To reply more directly--yes, older limbs obscure the signs, but take a hand lens along and look closely where you see the bumps bulges and wrinkles you will often see the actual dormant bud, on the surface. attached pics--last until you show yours!! Rougher textured bark will hide them and it may take years but those buds or buds elsewhere can release and start the whole magical process of photosynthesis.

When a large limb is shortened and its resources are reallocated, sprouts grow and add new resources. The limb may not look like much, but if it is functioning it is compartmentalizing and that is a much better thing than removing to the origin and opening the heart of the tree to invasion by solar radiation and evapotranspirational dessication and insects and disease and lions and tigers and bears, o my!

Unless you are out to create coon habitat, big stem wounds are B-A-D.

JPS does this sound like an old chat with a MM cheeser?

tv, post your pics of your 12" stem wounds that callused over. then we will have something to talk about.

attached pics courtesy of Jim Scarlata, who stepped up when others conjectured. Look at the little dimple on the outside in pic 1, then look at the pith trail and compacted xylem on the inside. that is a dormant bud, geared up and ready to roll.

:lifter:

 

[oldirty]

i knew it man! those little bumps that you can feel in the wood! lol

 

[treeseer]

i knew it man! those little bumps that you can feel in the wood! lol

isn't the picture clear enough? Try zooming in.

 

[treevet]

evapotranspirational dessication

JPS does this sound like an old chat with a MM cheeser?

12" stem wounds that callused over.

DID YOU SAY ....EVAPOTRANSPIRATIONAL DESSICATION???? Now, I don't know what you 2 conspirators in corniness have against Mike Maas but this is world class CHEESEY now isn't it? Not only is this cheesey, Guy, it is redundant as well. You and your partner in giant stub retention without remorse, Mr. Sanborn just love to use the $49.99 words to feign knowledge. Let's just say DRY OUT in the future.

If we are going to mystify people with our word knowledge, then maybe we should get the other, non mind boggling words right. A 12" stem does not "callus over" but rather at first forms callus and the following is considered woundwood that completes the occlusion of the wound. They are 2 different entities.

Woundwood occlusion on the side of a main stem, as opposed to the end of a giant stub that is retained does not cause cracks when grown into opposing sides. Too much mass to displace.

I do not know this but you 2 must be prolific "tree toppers" if you take pride in your giant stub production. You must not accept the well researched evidence that these topping cuts cause extensive decay and the resultant heavy woundwood (not an indicator of tree health or success of compartmentalization) formation growing into each other on opposing sides causes cracks at the end of these large stub retentions. I could cite you researched proof of this but I think you recently bought the Shigo stuff (although I think you think you know more than this recognized genius and developer of more documented scientific research than anyone in the history of our profession).

I think you both know you are being BAD BOYS and reveling in the pleasure of it all. Your moms likely will give you both a good spanking and send you to your respective rooms if you continue on with this.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

i knew it man! those little bumps that you can feel in the wood! lol

The same ones that help you with a limbwalk.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Not only is this cheesey, Guy, it is redundant as well. You and your partner in giant stub retention without remorse, Mr. Sanborn just love to use the $49.99 words to feign knowledge.

Golly gee, now we get into character assassination. I try to be more precises in my verbiage, so now I'm a pretentious moron?

Here I thought we were having a professional dialog. Yes Guy, this is like talking to Mike can be at time. You do not agree with me, so you are an idiot. And to think i was actually looking forward to reading this thread.

Shigo's work is not the basis for Modern Arboriculture, but the end-all, be-all. Yeesh!

To me this is a science: observe, conjecture, add to the knowledge base and discard, or modify, the old stuff. Old theories can evolve.

Dave, after that hyperbole about tree topping, I'll just "let" you go on hacking off big limbs at the trunk.

BTW, senescence is also age related decline, and the study there of. I actually learned it from reading Shigo some fifteen years ago.

Is there someone who would like to have an adult conversation with me and my buddy Guy?