Guy Meilleur
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p. 21 of the BMP's:"...bark should be removed to the sapwood beneath each washer." I don't think butch would countersink deeper than that. What are you talking about mm?
Yikes! Not so tight!!!
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MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
I don't plan on rodding it, Mike. I will if I have to, but in this particular situation I don't feel it is necessary.
Guy, don't put a lot into my pic. The lower laterals ARE interfering with the roof, and I would remove them anyway. I also plan on reducing the remaining limb as much as possible, but I don't want to leave a lion-tailed limb.
Concerning sealing the crack, he wants to use that sprayfoam stuff. I said it wasn't necessary.
My main concern is this guy's idea about the TIGHTNESS.
TIGHT is WRONG.
Guy, don't put a lot into my pic. The lower laterals ARE interfering with the roof, and I would remove them anyway. I also plan on reducing the remaining limb as much as possible, but I don't want to leave a lion-tailed limb.
Concerning sealing the crack, he wants to use that sprayfoam stuff. I said it wasn't necessary.
My main concern is this guy's idea about the TIGHTNESS.
TIGHT is WRONG.
Kneejerk Bombas
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I don't have the standards in front of me, but I was sure they changed the removal of bark from under the wood thing a few years ago.
There's also been recommendations to double or triple stack nuts and washers to give the new wood something to hold on to. We know that decay can cause the wood to weaken around the eye bolt. Countersinking creates a larger area of decay under and around the washer and nut.
There's also been recommendations to double or triple stack nuts and washers to give the new wood something to hold on to. We know that decay can cause the wood to weaken around the eye bolt. Countersinking creates a larger area of decay under and around the washer and nut.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Great idea! I've always just used one.
Kneejerk Bombas
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The idea of rodding is to stop the crack from opening and closing so it can grow closed. Otherwise everytime the wind blows it reopens the wound.
Tight is wrong.
Tight is wrong.
Newfie
Addicted to ArboristSite
"and to be real, I wouldn't put my name on it, you gotta leave some room for the posibility of a bad client."
Gotta love a guy who is afraid to take credit for his work. You must be a hack of an extraordinary nature.
Whoops! I think I saw your very last shred of credibility blow out the window.
Gotta love a guy who is afraid to take credit for his work. You must be a hack of an extraordinary nature.
Whoops! I think I saw your very last shred of credibility blow out the window.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
How many of the participants on this thread have read the AMSI A300 Cabling and Bracing standard and/or the ISA BMP brochure?
I've read both. It seems that unless you understand what the industry that you are making your living in considers "standard" you have a little bit to learn.
Not knowing what the "law" is is no excuse when you get caught breaking it. ANSI is the law you'll be measured by.
MM and GM, I mean Guy, are on the right track.
If the tree is cracked, bolts or support need to be installed above the crack. The support should be at least the diameter of the trunk above the union. Then install another support along the lines of MM's advice.
Tom
I've read both. It seems that unless you understand what the industry that you are making your living in considers "standard" you have a little bit to learn.
Not knowing what the "law" is is no excuse when you get caught breaking it. ANSI is the law you'll be measured by.
MM and GM, I mean Guy, are on the right track.
If the tree is cracked, bolts or support need to be installed above the crack. The support should be at least the diameter of the trunk above the union. Then install another support along the lines of MM's advice.
Tom
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
So you are saying the ONLY answer is bolts? And then, a cable?
Also, the tree trunk isn't cracked, if that makes a difference. It's one of the main forks.
Also, the tree trunk isn't cracked, if that makes a difference. It's one of the main forks.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Butc
Without seeing the tree I can't say for sure. Since it hasn't cracked yet, you could probably get by without bolting the trunk. If I were to support BIG wood I would put a steel cable low in the limb and dynamic/noon-invasive high to limit the amount of movement. The low cable/bolt does most of the support, holding things in place or limiting any large movements.
Tom
Without seeing the tree I can't say for sure. Since it hasn't cracked yet, you could probably get by without bolting the trunk. If I were to support BIG wood I would put a steel cable low in the limb and dynamic/noon-invasive high to limit the amount of movement. The low cable/bolt does most of the support, holding things in place or limiting any large movements.
Tom
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Yeah, my drawing leaves a lot to be desired. I really don't think bolts are absolutely necessary here.
I'm worried about how TIGHT he wants me to do it.
I'm worried about how TIGHT he wants me to do it.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you do your engineering right, you'll have an idea how much load will be on the anchors and cable. The charts in the ANSI/ISA brochures are pretty reliable.
Now, lets say that you find that the load will be xK[thousand]# [pounds] or xK#. The cable that is recommended has a breaking strength of some factor of x, depending on what kind of safety factor you want to live with. Then you step in, pull the cable tight, pre-loading it. You will have to subtract that tension load from the safety factor or breaking strength of the cabling system. You'll only be left with a portion of the strength to hold the tree.
Just to grab some numbers out of the air, lets say you want to support a 5K# load and want to have a 5:1 safety factor. You need a system with a breaking strength of 25K#. If you pre-load that by tightening the cable with a 3K# tension, you have greatly reduced your safety factor. You also need to consider the slam-dunk or karate effect too. Scary to think about with big trees.
Tom
Now, lets say that you find that the load will be xK[thousand]# [pounds] or xK#. The cable that is recommended has a breaking strength of some factor of x, depending on what kind of safety factor you want to live with. Then you step in, pull the cable tight, pre-loading it. You will have to subtract that tension load from the safety factor or breaking strength of the cabling system. You'll only be left with a portion of the strength to hold the tree.
Just to grab some numbers out of the air, lets say you want to support a 5K# load and want to have a 5:1 safety factor. You need a system with a breaking strength of 25K#. If you pre-load that by tightening the cable with a 3K# tension, you have greatly reduced your safety factor. You also need to consider the slam-dunk or karate effect too. Scary to think about with big trees.
Tom
Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
Butch,
I'm not going offer any advise as any thing I would say has already been said.
But I would like to ask a question since we are having this little chat on rods and cables.
Here goes, any one here ever used those lag threaded tree rods??
Installation is a little different than using the threaded rod with the nuts on the end, the hole is drilled 1/16 smaller than the rod and turned in with a big pipe wrench and the excess cut off with a hack saw. It is like putting a big wood screw in a tree.
I was wondering if their is an advantage to this over the traditional method. Never have done it myself, but curious if easier or harder to install?? Does it give better support than using the rods with the nuts??
Sorry for steering your thread off course a little MB, but it seemed like a good place to raise this question .
Larry
I'm not going offer any advise as any thing I would say has already been said.
But I would like to ask a question since we are having this little chat on rods and cables.
Here goes, any one here ever used those lag threaded tree rods??
Installation is a little different than using the threaded rod with the nuts on the end, the hole is drilled 1/16 smaller than the rod and turned in with a big pipe wrench and the excess cut off with a hack saw. It is like putting a big wood screw in a tree.
I was wondering if their is an advantage to this over the traditional method. Never have done it myself, but curious if easier or harder to install?? Does it give better support than using the rods with the nuts??
Sorry for steering your thread off course a little MB, but it seemed like a good place to raise this question .
Larry
Guy Meilleur
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MM--"Countersinking creates a larger area of decay under and around the washer and nut."
The bark under the washer will die anyway. If the bark is trimmed away, new bark will grow around the hardwar faster.
I'm looking at the 2001 BMP's; what are you looking at?
MB--"I also plan on reducing the remaining limb as much as possible, but I don't want to leave a lion-tailed limb."
Butch, reduction is taking weight off near the end of a branch and liontailing is taking weight off near the origin. These are exactly Opposite. Please spend $15. to get the ANSI pruning standards so you understand what the *I&^*&^ is going on.
"Concerning sealing the crack, he wants to use that sprayfoam stuff. I said it wasn't necessary."
Don't dismiss it outright. I can see it possibly doing more good than harm, if it lessens flexing and doesn't inhibit callus growth. Also, if he gets to use the foam, might he give a little on the tightness?
"My main concern is this guy's idea about the TIGHTNESS."
Tom's use of the chart on page 13 of the BMP's answers that pretty well. If you spent $5 on the book you could point to it.
If you're committed to being bookless you can use Tom's scary analogies "slam-dunk or karate effect" to carry the message.
The bark under the washer will die anyway. If the bark is trimmed away, new bark will grow around the hardwar faster.
I'm looking at the 2001 BMP's; what are you looking at?
MB--"I also plan on reducing the remaining limb as much as possible, but I don't want to leave a lion-tailed limb."
Butch, reduction is taking weight off near the end of a branch and liontailing is taking weight off near the origin. These are exactly Opposite. Please spend $15. to get the ANSI pruning standards so you understand what the *I&^*&^ is going on."Concerning sealing the crack, he wants to use that sprayfoam stuff. I said it wasn't necessary."
Don't dismiss it outright. I can see it possibly doing more good than harm, if it lessens flexing and doesn't inhibit callus growth. Also, if he gets to use the foam, might he give a little on the tightness?
"My main concern is this guy's idea about the TIGHTNESS."
Tom's use of the chart on page 13 of the BMP's answers that pretty well. If you spent $5 on the book you could point to it.
If you're committed to being bookless
you can use Tom's scary analogies "slam-dunk or karate effect" to carry the message.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
My guess is no, Larry. And it seemd harder to install than the conventional way. After you fight with the pipe wrench, you'll need a come-a-long to get the cable to the proper tension.
Sorry I don't have my vernacular down pat there, Guy.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Vernacular is a style of speaking; the problem is when basic ideas are not understood the same by 2 people.
If someone tells me to reduce a branch and I skin the middle, there is a huge problem, right?
I had a sub once who reduced branches at forks by cutting off the uprights and leaving the downrights. When I pointed out the horizontal wound and the remaining low, sprawling branch, he insisted it made no difference, that he was right.:alien:
That sub is no longer an arborist, but it scares me to know there are so many who refuse to get on the same ANSI pages with the rest of the industry.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
There I go again! I shoulda said 'jargon', eh?:alien:
NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ax-man, I've used them often.
The advantage of the lag thread is that in super-large trees, you don't have to drill completely thru- a semi-blind install. (The only lag rod I've found is sold in 6' lengths).
If you're doing a thru-and-thru with nuts at either end, better double-nut it though, or peen the ends over. They WILL loosen up easier than UNC.
If you plan on getting some "draw" with it, drill the start side 1/16" over, and the off-side 1/16" to 3/32" under.
The advantage of the lag thread is that in super-large trees, you don't have to drill completely thru- a semi-blind install. (The only lag rod I've found is sold in 6' lengths).
If you're doing a thru-and-thru with nuts at either end, better double-nut it though, or peen the ends over. They WILL loosen up easier than UNC.
If you plan on getting some "draw" with it, drill the start side 1/16" over, and the off-side 1/16" to 3/32" under.
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
This is a learning environment. We are all students. Just because Butch asked the question, it doesn't mean the responses are just for him.
Netree, thanks for the thorough response. There might be some people here that have never cabled a tree the right way. You may have opened someone's mind.
love
nick
Toddppm
Addicted to ArboristSite
What would you guys do with this?
This a big White Oak in my front yard. I had just trimmed back the side on the right to please my ??????? neighbor and it got hit by Isabel last Sept. When Brian was here we installed one cable, tried 2 but the lags kept breaking , I've been meaning to go back up and reinstall a second but haven't had the time.(got new lags) I doubt this gap could be closed , me and Brian tried with a rope just to snug it up and this past winter with no leaves it barely closed any more than in the pics.
I guess it does show in the pics but this is a big honkin tree and I'd hate to lose it but I think I would rather take it out than try to reduce it.
Think it will last with just cables? I don't think I could get a big enough bit to install a through bolt?
This a big White Oak in my front yard. I had just trimmed back the side on the right to please my ??????? neighbor and it got hit by Isabel last Sept. When Brian was here we installed one cable, tried 2 but the lags kept breaking
, I've been meaning to go back up and reinstall a second but haven't had the time.(got new lags) I doubt this gap could be closed , me and Brian tried with a rope just to snug it up and this past winter with no leaves it barely closed any more than in the pics. I guess it does show in the pics but this is a big honkin tree and I'd hate to lose it but I think I would rather take it out than try to reduce it.
Think it will last with just cables? I don't think I could get a big enough bit to install a through bolt?
