Stihl Chainsaw Service: Restoration or Repair?

[parrishturf]

I want to try to get input from many of you that have experience trying to bring older Stihl products back to life. All comments are welcome. My goal is to learn from your experiences and develop a viable commercial strategy to generate customer satisfaction and save many of these old Stihl products from the smelter.

I have experience on both sides of the counter and have developed an insight into the workings of a Stihl dealership and the availability of parts and the real cost associated with supporting aged equipment. However, I also have a love for the engineering and manufacturing of equipment built before the introduction of plastic, electronics, or even chain-breaks.

In today's world were labor costs rapidly exceed the value of the item being repaired, and the limited manpower dealerships have to execute those repairs. Dealers are hard-pressed to perform all but the simplest of repairs. My options are slim to support 03x, 04x saws. The cylinders are not available from Stihl. The impulse lines and many other critical parts are not available. With that in mind if I cannot get parts consistently I really should not even take the saw in and generate false expectations. I also cannot afford to tear down a saw only to find out what is already known - the saw needs parts that are no longer in the marketplace.

I see at least 10 or more beautiful Stihl saws that are 25 years old every week. We have tried to repair "What's Wrong", but in almost every case, the reality is the saws are not serviceable for a typical consumer. Many customers return with the saw seeking warranty work. At that point we move to a slippery slope, and unhappy customers.

I have decided to try a new tactic. To set expectations at the counter we will inform the customer of the reality and the variability of part cost, shipping charges, and labor. If the customer is set on keeping the saw running. I will only perform what might be called "Restoration". At that point we both understand the costs and challenges ahead.

So my questions to you all are:

• How would you feel if you came into my store with your grandads 045 and wanted me to get it running, and I suggested restoration rather than repair?
  
• Is there a market out their for restoring what many of us consider vintage saws?
  
• Is their an existing clearing house for used parts other than Ebay?
  
• Who has the parts?
  
• If a Web site existed that would purchase your used part saws would you participate?

 

[VINIFIREWOOD]

Used parts

There are two "used parts" or "chainsaw salvage" web sites right here on AS at the top of the page. Chainsawr.com and Sawdocmd.com
Good idea tho, to upfront with the customers with older saws about availability of parts and what is involved with "repairing" them.

 

[Hddnis]

If you perform a restoration for the average consumer you will have just married their saw and they'll expect it to run forever, no matter how upfront you are.

I think it is a great idea, I just really don't think it will work. Sorry to be a wet blanket.

If you believe in it then give it a go and I would love to be wrong about this.




Mr. HE

 

[Jacob J.]

If you perform a restoration for the average consumer you will have just married their saw and they'll expect it to run forever, no matter how upfront you are.

I think it is a great idea, I just really don't think it will work. Sorry to be a wet blanket.

If you believe in it then give it a go and I would love to be wrong about this.




Mr. HE

I agree, there's no way this will work for the average customer. The shops I've worked were in small towns, depressed economies. The customers just wanted their equipment running for as cheap as possible.

 

[rms61moparman]

With all due respect to Jacob and Mr He. I'm not too sure I agree.

I have personally witnessed several occasions where techs were told, "I don't care what it costs, it was my Granddads saw, fix it".

I believe the time is right for repair/restoration of many kinds of machinery, saws being one very good example.

The trick or problem is going to be;

1) Remaining cost efficient
Prices have to be low enough to generate value compared to buying new, and high enough to be profitable.

2) Generating confidence
If I use your service, will I have a tool that will last a comparable time to purchasing a new one, or will I have a very expensive piece of junk in 3 months time.


I once had the idea of restoring the 50's and 60's model Ford and Massey Ferguson tractors and selling them with a warranty.
They are always popular and sell very well. They are simple to work on and paint, and they are tough as nails!!!
Would you buy a 40 year old tractor if it came with the same warranty as a new one???
Look at what the "Mint" or "Near Mint" saws bring and that will give you an idea on what you can afford to put into one and still come out ahead.

I believe there would be a big market for this service but you would have to advertise heavily so as to acquire a national or international customer base.

I have a great running 4200 Poulan that looks like a survivor of Hiroshima that you can practice on for a good "before and after" photo op!!!


Mike

 

[Jacob J.]

I have personally witnessed several occasions where techs were told, "I don't care what it costs, it was my Granddads saw, fix it".

Mike

I have 20 years of working in and around saw shops. The amount of people who would really pay to restore a chainsaw is like 1 or 2% of total customers. Yeah, pristine old saws bring a good price on e-bay but e-bay is a special market, elevated to the largest customer demographic in the world.

People patronizing saw shops for the most part simply want their equipment to run again and not spend a lot doing it.

 

[Hddnis]

I once had the idea of restoring the 50's and 60's model Ford and Massey Ferguson tractors and selling them with a warranty.

That is an interesting idea. I think if a person thinks something like this will work they should try it. It might be a small niche market that makes them an honest living, or maybe makes them rich. I know a few guys who do that with old cars and sell them at auctions for restored cars. I don't think they offer a warranty, but I never asked specifically. I know of a few cases where they netted 13-17k over materials they put into the cars. They did the work on evenings and weekends in their garage.

Some of these guys will restore a car for you if you want them to. They charge T&M and prices start at 10k, but they don't do very many of those.

So, I don't think the OP's idea will work in the context of a saw shop. As a specialty service, offered to a large area, it might make him some coin. Sourcing parts will be the hardest part, I've got saws that have been sitting for a long time waiting for a part to show up.



Mr. HE

 

[rxe]

I had a car restored a while ago - an old Alfa-Romeo. The chap who did it had good advice: "I can restore this to perfection, but you have to remember that it is still a car from the early 1970s, it will still probably be unreliable, it will never start like a modern car on a freezing cold morning".

People who want restoration will be rare - they do exist, but for most sane people, it would make more sense to buy a 460 than pay someone to painstakingly rebuild their old 08S. The other thing about restoration is that most of the people who "get it" will be interested in doing the work themselves.

It depends on what is wrong. If it needs a carb kit and tune up, I'd do it. If it has no spark, needs a carb kit and has low compression....I'd be inclined to tell the customer "you can sink $$$ into this and still have a cranky old saw, or you can sink $$$ into a 260 or whatever".

Most people have no idea what an old saw is worth in parts. I think there is a business in old saw parts - you only have to look at the volumes going through ebay to see that. Would I buy a decent jug and piston for an 07S? Yes. You're going to get left with a lot of parts that don't wear out (crank cases and the like, you'll probably have to scrap them). Even if you start selling project saws here or on eBay "sold as seen customer brought it in", you 'd probably shift some volume.

To answer the specifics:

How would you feel if you came into my store with your grandads 045 and wanted me to get it running, and I suggested restoration rather than repair?

Depends on who I am. If I just wanted to cut wood, I wouldn't bite. If I was technically incompetent, and wanted my Grandpa saw going because it was his, I'd probably go for it. Me? I'd be coming in with a list of part numbers!

Is there a market out their for restoring what many of us consider vintage saws?

Yes, but it is very small. Most of the people interested would do it themselves.

Is their an existing clearing house for used parts other than Ebay?

Not that I know of. If there is....could someone tell me?

Who has the parts?

They're all over the place. I hoard everything. I've got a pair of Contra-S jugs that I don't need at the moment, but I'm looking for the saw to go with them.....

If a Web site existed that would purchase your used part saws would you participate?

Postage is going to kill you on what are effectively cheap parts. I would have thought that the best option would be to part out the saws that you have coming in the door and sell those - probably on eBay.

 

[parrishturf]

Response to post

This is exactly the kind of response I am looking for. Many great points have been made. As time goes by I will summarize and post.

Thank you,

Tim

 

[Fish]

In these tough economic times, finding folks that are willing to spend the
money to fix up Granddad's saw is harder to do.
I spend more time talking folks out of fixxing up their old stuff, and if you give them an estimate with a realistic range of cost and the expected
outcome and longevity, they usually will decline.
In talking them out of repairing their saw, I use this "Fishism", I will say
"Lincoln was a great president, but they still had to bury him......."

That being said, I am getting away from the repair end, and getting into
selling new-old-stock and used parts.
I have a garage full of stuff, and can get thrice the money out of them
rather than repairng and selling the stuff.

Similar thought on new saws as well...........

 

[ropensaddle]

It seems to start in less than 8 months and continue as long as you run them:monkey: My new MS200 already has problems I am in the process of finding out what it is but I am not at all impressed so far with the durability of stihl.

 

[8433jeff]

I've asked people what they think their equipment is worth or what they willing to stick into their small engine equipment when they bring it in for repair or service. I will tell them about the costs if its this or that and what else I'd do (new filters and gas lines for carb kits, new belt when replacing a pulley on the mower deck, etc.). Some want it fixed to run, some want it fixed "right", and some "don't care", at least until they see a bill. Estimates sometimes help, but as to restorations, if you want it looking pretty, thats easy. If you want it working and looking pretty, thats a different horse because where do you stop? Yes, it has good compression but I honed the cylinder and installed new rings? And a piston? Good as new? Yes, if its all new. Everything runs on used parts. How used is the sticking point. I've restored tractors from the motor out to the paint and then watched during parades as the owners show them off. Then the gas they put in last year fouls a plug, or the tire I wanted to replace before painting goes flat and the bill to touch up the paint after they bent the rim replacing the tire is half as much as the tire. I guess knowing your customers helps, but them knowing you is as important IMHO. My $.02.

 

[Ax-man]

Interesting thread. Good idea but from my limited experience in dabbling in the used saw market is that your lucky to get your parts money back. Your donating your time and labor considering the hours it takes to rebuild a saw. When all is said and done it is still a used saw, looks like a used saw even though it may run like a new saw it is still used in the eyes of the buyer. The average person has no conception of pistons , cylinders, seals and carbs nor what these parts cost. The price of a used saw is always going to be compared to a new one.

If your doing the restoration part you have more hours invested that your not going to get paid for. You will get a little more money if it looks above average but still it is a used saw.

Here at AS we have a passion for saws. The rest of of the world views a chainsaw as just another tool around the garage or workshop. The average person just doesn't see the same value that we do when it comes to chainsaws.

I would love to what the OP is proposing but in reality it just isn't feasible to make any real money at it. Chainsaws don't have the same following as do restored cars and tractors because it is such a miniscule market compared to the bigger toys.

 

[smokinj]

I guess the way this thread is going and I think your all right about what your saying...seems to me there could be a market for the home owner saw that just needs a few simple fixes at a low cost say in the 20-50 buck range. Not trying to steel the thread just looking for nitch in the market....

 

[howellhandmade]

SNIP

Here at AS we have a passion for saws. The rest of of the world views a chainsaw as just another tool around the garage or workshop. The average person just doesn't see the same value that we do when it comes to chainsaws.

I would love to what the OP is proposing but in reality it just isn't feasible to make any real money at it. Chainsaws don't have the same following as do restored cars and tractors because it is such a miniscule market compared to the bigger toys.

Smack dab. The internet is the only hope of concentrating enough interest and money in one place. If I were looking at this, I'd start it as a hobby, by buying low, restoring, then selling on TP or ebay. Get a few restored saws in people's hands, and they'll say nice things about what wonderful work you did, and how solidly built (ahem) that old 041 is, how it's just like a new saw. If the work is good enough and you can do it efficiently enough to make money, word will get around and you'll have people contacting you, and "restored by parishturf" will add value. When work builds to the point that you consider quitting your day job, hang on a while longer. Or not. At least, if the clientele doesn't appear you won't have a lot to lose.

Jack

 

[parrishturf]

Not just another day.

Today it was agreed that antiques will be identified as such and we will attempt to demonstrate a "Need Gap" to the customer and sell new saws on value and serviceability. Right off the bat a new question arose:

After all the effort and high minded sales stratigy, how do I get the customer to sell me the 084 for $20.00?

In regards to my use of "Restoration" with a customer my goal is to focus the conversation on a productive outcome. It is not my intent to create a collection of restored saws and market them as means to an end. My goal is to clarify a scope of work that the shop, and the customer can agree on. Many of our service tickets state the ambiguous "Make it run!". Personally That means an overhaul. The saw can be completely overhauled in about 90 minutes if parts are on hand. It makes no sense to me to fight with the fuel lines and impulse line, change them out, re ring it and move forward. Keep in mind that's my opinion. In reality we often try a minimum level repair and it bites us in the rear...

All that said...If we consistently do our job and sell at the counter trading for some of the more desireable older saws and selling them as units rather than parts is appealing to me. It would reduce the inventory problems and ebay or our website would be a great clearing house.

Keep the ideas coming,

Tim

 

[parrishturf]

020av Top Handle

Today an 020Av top handle came in. If you have never seen one it is beautiful.

The saw has an unusual spark plug wire. It is routed all the way through the saw and back to the plug. Not a problem unles it need changing. In order to get to the flywheel the left side cover must be removed as usual but not so easy. It seams the fuel tank is split and part of the cover. Odley enough the coil is still instock from Stihl, but not so the gasket.

Does anyone have a left side cover gasket, coil, or plug wire for an 020av Top Handle?

 

[PogoInTheWoods]

Interesting, but.....

After all the effort and high minded sales stratigy, how do I get the customer to sell me the 084 for $20.00?Tim

Uh, let us know!!!???

Thing is (in the context of your overall business strategy)...

You don't. You spend more time here realizing the value of 'grandpa's saw' to the real masses of the aftermarket, and accordingly give a fair enough price to offset the customer's purchase price toward a new product while still realizing a reasonable return on your effort from a market you are (with all due respect) attempting to exploit for the very research results many here have already learned from their own years of experience -- the hard way. In some ways (lots, actually), you're asking how to take bread off of the tables of those whose advice and guidance you're seeking. And they're still being nice enough to respond, well, just because that's what folks here seem to do.

Folks here BUY 25 rare saws a week if they can find em and they're worth anything to them personally, or on the market -- for a reason.

The 'reasons' for any of it are a study in both the market itself and the basic understanding of CAD psychology.

Spend some more time around here just lurking and learning the dynamic. And if you see as many cool old saws as you indicated is the case, you're
gonna be a real popular guy around here -- if you play your cards right!

Just my 2 cents. Not tryin' to rub anyone the wrong way.

Poge

 

[belgian]

I agree, there's no way this will work for the average customer. The shops I've worked were in small towns, depressed economies. The customers just wanted their equipment running for as cheap as possible.

Bingo !

I'll give him 3 months and he will be out of business. Repairing oldies is not profitable, nobody will compensate for the repair hours you invest in those machines. And with the market trend going to cheaper consumer saws, it will even be more difficult in the future.

 

[Mastermind]

Bingo !

I'll give him 3 months and he will be out of business. Repairing oldies is not profitable, nobody will compensate for the repair hours you invest in those machines. And with the market trend going to cheaper consumer saws, it will even be more difficult in the future.

+1 If I want an old saw restored I will do it myself, that is the cool part. If I want to get back out in the woods making a living I'll cough up some funds for a reliable saw. If I'm into saws enough to have grandpa's 056 restored, then, again I would want to have a hand in it. I feel if the OP wants to get his customers saw for $20.00 his thinking is flawed in the first place. I'm staying out of his shop!!!