Chain for cutting extreme hardwood, and saw

I recently scored the cylinder of my 10 year old 18" Husky 345 firewood and all-purpose saw, cutting very dense, seasoned, 16" Salt Cedar (tamarack), one of the hardest woods in the U.S.

My fault, the chipper chains (Oregon and Stihl) I used dulled very fast, and I pushed them and overheated the bar, transferring excess heat to the engine (I think). I have a mechanical sharpener now, so no more dull chains!

My shop says the saw (no compression, also needs new bar) is not economical to repair - true? I certainly don't have the skills or inclination to do the work. The saw is otherwise in good shape (new drive sprocket). They won't take it in trade.

I liked the weight, reliability and easy starting (cylinder decompressor) of that Husky (I'm not getting any younger) and would replace it with the similar 445 (11 lb powerhead) without hesitation if it were not for the salt cedar which is great firewood, and the occasional need to quickly clear my bridge of it after flash floods in my creek bottom here in the desert SW.

I really don't think the answer is to get a much more powerful saw: the 345 drove the chipper OK until the chain dulled. But I'd like to get opinions on that view before a purchase. Rather, I think I need a specialized chain that cuts more wood before premature dulling.

Question One: what type of chain (tooth) would be best suited to extreme hardwoods with 18" chain? (The Husky candidates run a .325 chain.) Perhaps a particular tooth profile (chisel, semi chisel?) will cut for longer without sacrificing cutting speed. I think there may be some tooth contours that enhance cutting hardwoods but I have not found details.


The most obvious factor that influences how a tooth holds its edge and how well it cuts, providing it is not allowed to overheat, or the saw to overload, is the quality of the steel or other material. I read that some brands are superior - which? Expensive carbide chains are impractical (sharpening difficulties) and slow.

Some tooth variations such as low profile and skip chains, only dull slower because they cut slower: the net result would seem to be that the same amount of wood is cut more slowly before the chain dulls. I don't see how a narrow kerf makes a difference: a narrower tooth cuts less width at the same depth and so will dull at the same rate. All these mods do is reduce the load on the engine, good for a long bar on logs bigger than I cut. If saw power is not the problem, how will they help?

I ran across this quote "you downset the raker different for hardwood than you do for soft wood". What does that mean and is it useful? I'm guessing it means a shallower cut, in which case it is covered by the above paragraph.


Question Two is whether I am correct that I don't need a more powerful saw. I frequently see the 50cc Husky 386XP recommended here (for $80 more than the 445), but no reason given - nor does Husqvana explain the advantages of the XP series. Well, its a PRO saw - what does that mean? At 50cc it is 32% more powerful than the 445, a big gain, but 8 oz heavier: if the greater hp yields more efficient cutting for me, an acceptable trade off. I'm not convinced engine power is my issue because a sharp chain does not bog, but I'm open to suggestion.

I should mention I am not considering other brands of saw at present due to dealer availability in this area, lack of desired features on comparable Stihls and the fact I have a number of new chains for a Husky.

Thanks for comments, Charlie

Welcome to the fray!!

Too bad about your old saw.
Also it's too bad you don't have an inclination to rebuild it, as that would be the cheaper way to go.

It sounds like you smoked the bar with a lack of oil and a dull chain.
That kinda sucks.

Where to start...

Semi-chisel chain seems to be the best balance of speed and durability in dirty gritty hardwoods and holds up well enough in Osage and Hornbeam.

Pro saws(XP) have split magnesium cases, allowing for rebuilds without spending more than a new saw. They have stronger and more precise components that are more durable than the homeowner models, and in general have a higher power to weight ratio than homeowner saws.
You get what ya pay for in other words.

You stated you weren't really looking for a larger saw, but logic dictates that you are pushing a 50cc saw into the realm of 60-70cc saws, and it would be a false economy to trash another 50cc saw.
Yeah, a good 50cc pro saw will put up with the abuse but they have thier limits.

Have you looked at the Husky 359?
They are priced around the same area as a 346XP, feature pro saw contruction, and it's hard to find anybody that dosn't like thiers.

Also look on the trading post here for solid used pro saws.
If you're gonna beat the hell out of a 50cc saw, it might as well be used and economical as well as solid.

Good luck to ya!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

+1
I totally agree.


Lee

We cut dirty hard wood all day long and we use Stihl Semi-Chisel (Round tooth) in full skip.

We love it and will never purchase Chisel chain again.

Sam

extreme hardwood

I have a woodlot with shagbark hickory, semi-chisel seem to last longer on
the armored bark hickory trees; think our Aussie friends like it for their tough woods.

Stihl rmc is impressive in terms of holding up to dirty wood. 3 sharpenings got me through 5 cords of mud caked red oak and sugar maple whereas round chisel didn't even get a cord done before going dull.
I always thought chipper was obsolete dirty wood chain? In clean hardwood round chisel (rsc/lpx) lasts me awhile even with the rakers on the combi gauge 'softwood' setting.

345

Charlie, I have to chuckle. that you overheated the bar and transferred to the engine. Anyway, in my opinion a 18 bar should be the max for your saw.My 445 has a 16 BC and it pulls a Baileys 325 Woodsman Pro, with out any problem.You did not mention the diameter of the logs you were cutting.Many others will make mention of the Husqvarna 346NEXp as the way to go.But remember that this is still only a 50cc saw.Yes their are other makes out their but go for a brand that has good dealer support, Ken

Stihl makes a carbide chain, not sure what saws they'll fit, but should hold up the task your using it for.

You have so many options and combinations for what will work for you that it is hard to choose one. I think that if you are going to buy a new saw, I would look at professional grade all the way. There are some pro saws that you can get for about the price of what you will pay for a Lowes Husky, so why spend $400 on a homeowner saw when you can spend that and get a pro saw? As far as buying a saw goes, there are some great deals on used pro grade saws that run just as well as the day they were first started. There are a lot of us here, including me, that are sporting a few used pro saws for some pretty heavy use. I do have a pro saw that I bought new and I love it too and use it more than any of them, but my used saws work great and one of them I bought for $40, the Dolmar I spent over $500 on. As far as chain goes, a semi-chisel seems to work well for dirty wood, but no matter what chain you buy, keeping them sharp and making sure the oiler is working properly is what will make the difference in the effort you have to put into cutting. You should not have to push on the saw to make it cut, the saw should do the work for you. If you are starting to push on the saw to make it cut, sharpen the chain. Good luck

chain for hard wood.

IF you scored the cyl , I don't see how heat from the bar could have contributed to it. More likely you just pushed the saw too far with a dull chain and not enough oil lubrication. This site can help you rebuild the saw if you need to do that. Lots of help from the best in the country. A used saw from this site (tradin post) will save some money and allow you to get an excellent quality saw. Chisel chain is not good for dirty wood. We cut Juniperwith th eshaggy bark that accumalates sand in the wind here in NM and the pointy chisel s dull too fast. There is a carbide plated chain that is about 40 bucks a chain, but I dont know if a diamond file is required to sharpen it. Diamond is requied for the solid carbide cutters like firemen use.
Thats pretty good size salt cedar. Apple that has died in the orchard is also very hard.

Many thanks for the detailed and helpful replies! Please keep them coming.

A bit more background: I probably cut about a cord or a little more mixed woods annually to supplement my passive solar home. Last year I cut more salt cedar than usual - perhaps 1/3 cord, max 16" (18" bar). This stuff has always been hard to cut, but last year was worse. In retrospect I think the bar has been deteriorating so that the chain does not ride level. I would file it occasionally but just learned that I can peen it to restore the correct width groove (too late now for this bar).

I know all the signs of a dull blade but just got so frustrated at the rapid dulling that I stupidly tried pushing it. I could not restore sharpness with a file (never have been much good with one, in spite of all the lessons posted here and elsewhere). So I bought the Chicago grinder for this season. I won't know how good it is until I get a saw that cuts

"IF you scored the cyl , I don't see how heat from the bar could have contributed to it. More likely you just pushed the saw too far with a dull chain and not enough oil lubrication".

I'm going for a second opinion on the cylinder and cause of the problems in in a minute. It was just my assumption that piston damage was due to bar overheating as I had no other explanation. I always ran 1:50 oil/gas per manual, and did not run out of cutting oil.

I'm still not convinced that the engine was overworking, because the cutters, when dull, would just skip over the hardwood making dust; certainly the friction and heat created smoke. When the chain was cutting well, the saw did not show signs of bogging.

However, I am wiling to go up to the 234XP 18" Husky to be on the safe side, which will increase power by about 30% (hp, not capacity). Not familiar with the 359 - will have to research.

It looks like better chain and bar care will help a lot, plus using semi-chisel chain or trying other suggestions here.

Many thanks again, I'll be back after I study the thread some more and get back from another shop.

Charlie

Carlton/Woodland Pro semi-chisel

Oh, for the saw- go 70cc with an 18"

for super hard wind battered oaks I usually use my ported MS460 with 16" bar and Woodland pro 3/8 semi-chisel full comp with a 7 pin rim

cgraham said:

I'm still not convinced that the engine was overworking, because the cutters, when dull, would just skip over the hardwood making dust; certainly the friction and heat created smoke. When the chain was cutting well, the saw did not show signs of bogging.

Charlie

Click to expand...

The dust part makes me think maybe your rakers are too high? Just a thought....

I cut mostly standing dead oak, hard and mostly dry, 15 +/- cords a year. Rough on saws and chains.

I use Stihl RMC or Oregon simi-chisel chain on a 10 year old 346xp 90% of the time.
Works great for me!

If i seen you typing correctly- You bought the Chicago grinder? The 1 from HarborFreight?

http://www.harborfreight.com/electric-chain-saw-sharpener-93213.html

I got 1 out in the shop that I will no longer touch. Only tried using it 3 times i think. Will not hold the correct angle. has a wobble on it. The only thing its currently good for is...well collecting dust. I would strongly advise on how to hand file...Your chains will last longer.

chain for hard wood.

I don't know what a 234xp goes for ,but there is a nice looking 359 on the train post.

More great comments and suggestions: thanks.

Meanwhile I got back from a very interesting meeting with a knowledgeable saw mechanic who actually cuts wood (he owns about 13 saws).

He pointed out something the first tech did not see: the piston is discolored on both sides which indicates burning. He suspects a bilateral leak in the crankcase housing seal which would admit air: causing the engine overheating. A bilateral leak is very rare and he thinks it is due to a factory defect that became evident very slowly and independently of the chain problems, although the loss of compression aggravated them.

On the subject of rapid chain dulling, he suspects that the problem is due to the exposure of the Salt Cedar to floods. Rolling around in the creek bottom during floods causes sand to be ground into the surface. Wind-blown sand is also often blown into the bark in the desert. He recommended full-chisel chain as being the the best for these conditions, but admitted that it dulls fast too. A chrome plated chain holds up better, but is no better after sharpening. A full chisel is not a low-kickback chain. I have to look into the other chains suggested here.

The tech does not think that insufficient power is a factor in poor cutting, except for the loss of compression. Combination of sand and a worn out bar is sufficient explanation.

My saw cuts tend to curve off to the right. I learned that righties tend to wear the bar on the right, causing this effect.

Given these conclusions, I will be able to get by just fine with a new model 450 or possibly a 346XP, which is still 50cc, (5cc more than the old saw, but 23% more hp) if I want to spend about $160 more on a more powerful professional model for "insurance". The 346XP is available with the tri-break system which seems like a nice safety device - a second safety break just in front of the right hand which is an additional protection against kickbacks (it seems to me more easily activated by a kickback than the froward brake. It also can be conveniently used to lock the chain when moving around.

I am satisfied by the explanation of problems. It will be refreshing to start over with fresh equipment. Either saw should last for as long as I am going to be cutting wood if I look after it properly. Oh, and the Chicago sharpener? Some love 'em, some hate 'em. Probably depends if you are a whiz with a file. I am not. But that's another thread.

Charlie

Stihl makes three carbide chains. One is specifically for rescue operations while the other two are for wood cutting. I believe the two for woodcutting are less expensive than the rescue chain. I haven't used them but they might be good for your situation. They can only be sharpened with a special diamond wheel.
http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/types.html

willsaw4beer said:

I always thought chipper was obsolete dirty wood chain?

Click to expand...

Nah chipper still available from Carlton. Good stuff when the conditions are super grubby Cuts about 10% slower than semi chisel but lasts probably twice as long between sharpenings.