I told him the first day he started that the guy previous to him was fired for being late, and calling in.It never sank in. When he started coming in high I showed him my busted fingers and told him if this happens to you, me, or anyone else you will be pee tested. He never could get that.
16 yo kid inside a mill
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you're proof of that
I jumped from page 1 to here. If I repeat any of this, sorry. I'm fourth generation in the tree business. I started driving chipper trucks for my Dad when I was 16, 1972. Didn't know any better. Ran 16" chipper and the biggest Vermeer stump grinder they made at the time, didn't know any better. When my son turned 16 my wife asked my cousin, who still owned the family business, if my son could work for him over the Summer? He said no! A 16 year old could not do anything for him, and 18 year old's were restricted in what they could do. BUT, I think he said there was a caveat. A child of the owner of a tree business could start to work at 14. That may have been 16, but 14 is ringing a bell. Don't quote me to a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, just an old tree guy. The only thing I was going to say, is if the boy was a child of the owner, he "May" have been legal? Now, I'm going back to read everything and sort through the this, that, and the other that people think they know.
You don't know that. You are vocalizing what you think is just, you may be wrong. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm keeping my yap shut on legal matters.
A friend drove the school bus in North Carolina his senior year.
I started flagging for a family friends crop dusting business when I was twelve. I got paid more than a dollar an hour which was eye opening for me at the time. I grew up on a Air Force Base right after the war ended. I saw first hand many pilots have accidents that ended life often. My circle of family and friends never showed much concern for life just live it. The Pilot that I worked for just the previous summer had killed a flagger so yes there were some concerns. My parents were not involved in my life so there were not parental concerns. I saw early how one must be aware of their surroundings and have an escape plan. Then I went to the USFS where I learned to exit aircraft with reasonable care so I could live another day. I became a Hotshot Crew member and off course learned to work in hand line crews. Since I already had some chain saw experience I was often asked to do falling in very smoky hazard conditions. After almost sixty years later still take hazards with care and planning.
I do not think any laws or concerns from the Governments are going to solve any problems with safety. I have seen many older arbor involved individuals make a deadly error. So who is to blame. A guy from my community who was in his mid twenties made a fatal mistake the ended his life. He had plenty of experience and was an excellent climber. After we had a enormous amount of trees die and be removed people started taking jobs out of town to keep paying the bills. This particular individual dropped a tree on a slope then went to the down side and limbed the tree. At some point there were not enough branches to keep log from rolling over him. So what laws should be considered. My conclusion is you can not fix stupid. How do you train some one to think ahead and be safe. I am saddened that people make mistakes that cost them but maybe good training program is the best that can be done. When working for the USDA we had many classroom weeks of study and training. We were constantly reminded check your gear it can be a difference between surviving or not. I did not need to be reminded. I knew when I saw a plane ready to make a water drop I knew to take cover carefully. Thanks
I do not think any laws or concerns from the Governments are going to solve any problems with safety. I have seen many older arbor involved individuals make a deadly error. So who is to blame. A guy from my community who was in his mid twenties made a fatal mistake the ended his life. He had plenty of experience and was an excellent climber. After we had a enormous amount of trees die and be removed people started taking jobs out of town to keep paying the bills. This particular individual dropped a tree on a slope then went to the down side and limbed the tree. At some point there were not enough branches to keep log from rolling over him. So what laws should be considered. My conclusion is you can not fix stupid. How do you train some one to think ahead and be safe. I am saddened that people make mistakes that cost them but maybe good training program is the best that can be done. When working for the USDA we had many classroom weeks of study and training. We were constantly reminded check your gear it can be a difference between surviving or not. I did not need to be reminded. I knew when I saw a plane ready to make a water drop I knew to take cover carefully. Thanks
there's very specific exceptions that allow a 16yo to work at a few jobs around a mill.
Depending on layout of said mill, if the drop bins are in the same building as any of the power driven shaping machinery, legality is blurred.
It came out later that the father is an employee of the mill.
What bothers me most:
These safety laws were pretty much written in blood of children. We pass laws to prevent death of minors
then some Years go by without kids dying in factories or plants etc. then some ____choice description for people I think are mentally deficient_____ then point to the no kids hurt as proof the laws are over reaching and a whole bunch of:
"BACK IN MY DAY -- I WAS DUAL WIELDING 076 SUPERS WEARING SANDLES WITH A HALF TIN OF COPE PACKED IN! USING MY TEETH TO FEED TOOTHPICKS INTO THE CHIPPER AND I AM BETTER FOR IT!!!!"
(please don't read me as singling anyone out, its an exaggeration of the pervasive theme)
Well that's jolly and all, the corpses aren't the ones available to tell war stories.
And then Bill with his: kids need to be exposed to danger, 5+ stories of kids under his direct supervision getting hurt later, with carefully written narratives about how no one could possibly be blaming him at all...
The people rolling these laws back know for fact kids will die. That cheap labor is worth the price. That's what the donors are paying for. A lot cheaper to buy a vote than pay a wage to an adult. Its truly amazing how cheap our politicians are.
Theyre comforted by the fact that its not their little crotch-fruit born to 3rd generation country club membership that are in the firing line. Just poor kids, immigrants and immigrant kids.
Ironic and mind numbing. Whatevs. Thoughts and prayers, right?
These safety laws were pretty much written in blood of children. We pass laws to prevent death of minors
then some Years go by without kids dying in factories or plants etc. then some ____choice description for people I think are mentally deficient_____ then point to the no kids hurt as proof the laws are over reaching and a whole bunch of:
"BACK IN MY DAY -- I WAS DUAL WIELDING 076 SUPERS WEARING SANDLES WITH A HALF TIN OF COPE PACKED IN! USING MY TEETH TO FEED TOOTHPICKS INTO THE CHIPPER AND I AM BETTER FOR IT!!!!"
(please don't read me as singling anyone out, its an exaggeration of the pervasive theme)
Well that's jolly and all, the corpses aren't the ones available to tell war stories.
And then Bill with his: kids need to be exposed to danger, 5+ stories of kids under his direct supervision getting hurt later, with carefully written narratives about how no one could possibly be blaming him at all...
The people rolling these laws back know for fact kids will die. That cheap labor is worth the price. That's what the donors are paying for. A lot cheaper to buy a vote than pay a wage to an adult. Its truly amazing how cheap our politicians are.
Theyre comforted by the fact that its not their little crotch-fruit born to 3rd generation country club membership that are in the firing line. Just poor kids, immigrants and immigrant kids.
Ironic and mind numbing. Whatevs. Thoughts and prayers, right?
If the details are out, lets hear them? What are the exceptions, page, paragraph, line.
In no way, shape, or form am I disagreeing with you. I DON'Y KNOW. But, the way you present yourself, you come over as an angry person with a point to prove, and without proof, you dig yourself into a deeper hole. We all grieve the loss of a child, there is no argument there.
My Uncle was in the tree business too. Back in the 70's he hired one of the neighborhood kids. He told the kid to get a work permit at school. He was one of five boys, When he got the work permit, he gave his older brothers birthday. No one at school checked. My Uncle filed the permit. The boy was supposed to rake yards, that's it. It was common practice for us to sweep the sawdust off the rooves of houses(no blowers back then). The kid got on the roof and started sweeping. Before anyone noticed, he fell head first off the roof and broke his neck. Other ground guys said they saw him in the back yard earlier with a brown lunch bag to his face breathing in and out. Turned out he was huffing model glue. Also turned out he had a police record, he was known by the school to be abusing drugs. The people that had that info, did not pass it on to my uncle. He wound up getting the book thrown at him. Many thousands of dollars in fines. He had to send the boy to a rehab facility in Denver, one of the best in the world at the time. The kid became a quadriplegic. He still found ways to do drugs. He eventually committed suicide by driving his wheel chair into traffic. My Uncle took the blame. He tried to help a kid from the "wrong side of the tracks", and he took the blame for it.
If the father took the kid to work with him, is he the blame or the mill. My WAG is the mill, but, again, I DON'T KNOW.
In no way, shape, or form am I disagreeing with you. I DON'Y KNOW. But, the way you present yourself, you come over as an angry person with a point to prove, and without proof, you dig yourself into a deeper hole. We all grieve the loss of a child, there is no argument there.
My Uncle was in the tree business too. Back in the 70's he hired one of the neighborhood kids. He told the kid to get a work permit at school. He was one of five boys, When he got the work permit, he gave his older brothers birthday. No one at school checked. My Uncle filed the permit. The boy was supposed to rake yards, that's it. It was common practice for us to sweep the sawdust off the rooves of houses(no blowers back then). The kid got on the roof and started sweeping. Before anyone noticed, he fell head first off the roof and broke his neck. Other ground guys said they saw him in the back yard earlier with a brown lunch bag to his face breathing in and out. Turned out he was huffing model glue. Also turned out he had a police record, he was known by the school to be abusing drugs. The people that had that info, did not pass it on to my uncle. He wound up getting the book thrown at him. Many thousands of dollars in fines. He had to send the boy to a rehab facility in Denver, one of the best in the world at the time. The kid became a quadriplegic. He still found ways to do drugs. He eventually committed suicide by driving his wheel chair into traffic. My Uncle took the blame. He tried to help a kid from the "wrong side of the tracks", and he took the blame for it.
If the father took the kid to work with him, is he the blame or the mill. My WAG is the mill, but, again, I DON'T KNOW.
OK, I was never aware that any child safety laws were relaxed. When Dad retired in 1986, I didn't want to take over the business and I went to work for UPS. We used to tease one of my friends, that started as a work program through school, at 16, that he was conceived in the back of a trailer. His supervisor had to fill out a grade card for him. UPS no longer hires 16 year old's. Is that law, or just their policy? I don't know. I was a Teamster Steward for 25 of my 30 years at UPS. If labor laws were being relaxed, I would think the Teamster would be all over it? I have been retired 7 years, and I don't watch the news, I may just be out of touch.
Yes, I am very guilty of being angry at the situation.
I have an axe to grind, regarding child labor, I have no issue admitting it.
I personally do not believe child labor laws should be rolled back.
It speaks very poorly for our society, our economy, and more poorly for the ones who support such laws. When it comes to industrial labor, it literally translates to: More kids will die, and I am ok with that.
Why pay adults that think they deserve a wage and benefits when you can get a kid to do the work for 50% the cost? That f350 wont buy itself!
Reference:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-lawmakers-11-states-seek-weaken/11682548002/
If you want to have a cordial conversation about anything I posted I am ready willing and able but you darn sure better be able to quote what I have said.
I
I think you have a good handle on most of those topics, but I don't agree with all of your conclusions. For some of us with that "put the kids to work" attitude, it's not at all about getting cheaper labor.
Myself, I acknowledge that some of the kids will indeed get crushed, injured for life, or maybe just banged up unnecessarily. Along the way, those same kids will gain a measure of maturity and responsibility that they will likely never reach if they wait 'till they are 21 to start taking responsibility for their actions. I am willing to accept those risks for my own kids, as well as for others.
I cannot tell you how many man/child characters I have hired over the years that just don't know how to take care of themselves at all, much less on a jobsite. Furthermore, I don't think I have ever hired any impressively capable employees that waited until after they got out of their parent's house to look for work. Invariably, I discover they generally didn't have a job in their teens, and they also tend to be raised without a strong family that makes them grow up.
As any responsible person would argue, that all depends upon the parent's influence and the relative safety of whatever jobs the young people take. I am one of those characters that was thrown on dangerous machines when I was far too young. I was also given very dirty, disgusting work while still a tender teenager. Along the way, I became very capable, mentally tough, and morally straight. I cannot in good conscience recommend leaving the kiddies alone to play video games until they get thrown out of the house for being a slacker without a job.
And I would never, ever put a kid in the places my father put me. But I damn sure would put 'em close enough to the workplace that they learned it wasn't fun, it wasn't easy, and those dollars are work to earn. Spend 'em wisely, and don't be a clown that gets fired for violating safety rules.
pd,
And you're banged up to hell and back seven ways from Sunday, no? I swear it was you that should I want a hard copy I would damn near have to fire up a Heidelberg to properly accommodate the page count for number of times you were injured in a different thread.
Look I have stated time and again, I know I am peeing into the wind tunnel on this site.
Neither work ethic nor responsibility are solely learned by wielding dangerous equipment or putting yourself in mortal danger. granted it will expedite things if you stay on the right side of the daisies.
I know guys who the most dangerous thing they have ever done is used Phillips head and changed a card in a computer. These same SOBs will work late hours continuous into the night to help guys in the field supporting customers with 24/7 support contracts. Salaried workers who have worked 80 hrs a week just because its the right thing, no hope of overtime.
Japanese counterparts in some projects have some of the strongest work ethic of any person Ive met, most of them never do a thing that is anywhere close to dangerous.
Ive met guys who do dangerous work. the moment it hits 5 they are done no matter the status of the job.
Ive seen kids who almost raised themselves, no parents to speak of or came from an epic dumpster fire of a childhood show up to work everyday, and the kids that had every opportunity handed to them on a plate, fail at everything. And I know the children of a doctor who all graduated top of their class and went on to be doctors. Ive seen families that had 2 very successful children and one absolute F-up. Same environment! how'd that happen?
Everyone here who has spent anytime outside their house has dealt with the full spectrum that humanity has to offer. There really is no secret sauce.
Pigeonholing kids into factory work because of some false sense of banging them into adulthood early is straight up bull feces. Again I am not accusing anyone here obviously of wanting to peel back labor laws over increased profits. but you damn sure better understand thats what the lawmakers and their donors are doing. And their appealing to tradition(how you grew up) to sell you on it. Unemployment is extremely low, they dont like having to pay the going rate of labor.
@scut207 If I may ask, what do you do for a living?
I'd finger Scut as a Safety enabler. 
Sure, I am an electrical engineer, focused on optics, embedded computation and image analysis. Before this I've done just about everything.
Field Farm work in my teens
active duty Infantry in Army for some years Reserves for more
Barbacking and Bartending
Temp Factory work on the side / metal fab
Moving Crew
Grill cook at a steak house
Managed a kitchen in a restaurant
Worked as a research assistant in a laser lab doing all kinds of crazy fun stuff.
Designed programmable logic controllers (and wrote the software that interpretated the ladder rung logic to machine code) for elevators and other embedded systems
Probably some jobs I forgot here and there. I worked full time and went to college on the GI bill. We heated my house with wood. so Im no lumber jack, but I'm a veteran operator of a go-devil, my dad didnt get a hydrolic splitter till I moved out.
For the last 16 years or so I design systems that scan checks and full documents (and other crazy things like cigarettes, playing cards, even tampons and catalytic converters) at production speeds sometimes up to 100 per second, and check that they've been created properly. Basically any mail you've gotten in the last 20 years has about a 30% chance of a scanning device designed by me or someone in my company looking at it before it got to you, 90% if your just looking at legal and financial, we don't have much penetration in junk mail. Mostly banking insurance and government documents Social Security cards, checks, as well as ballots to make sure there's no extraneous print defects or that your front of letter didnt get someone elses back, or that all the pages in that should have made it into the envelope, did.
My hobbies include wood working and being out in the woods, golf and fishing. I love going to tractor pulls and lumber jack competitions.
I have chainsaws coming out my ears. If anyone wants vintage saws let me know. I have 100s from my dad passing away that he restored to garage queens.
He went a bit ballistic on the hobby of restoring them.
Oh, let's talk, let's definitely talk
I think
I think scut has some points that I agree with here. I see at least two major problems here with governmental interference. Time and time again the labor laws do not protect any body from any thing. Many parents are not teaching or training their children to do any thing productive. So as a result we have young adults who are just plain incompetent. So if governments want to accomplish a positive direction they need to develop work training programs that teach people how to be safe for life. We have laws that says you can not practice nursing until you complete training. So programs that certify trainees that they have in a satisfactory way know how to be around dangerous equipment and thus holding employers blameless. Thanks
That is the exact reason why we need to expand vocational and technical programs in our schools instead of closing them.
