19 fire fighters perished

[slowp]

It's a terrible feeling. I had to wait what seemed like eons to get hold of a friend to see if her husband survived the South Canyon fire. He did. He was on the crew where 14 died.

We called the fire shelters, shake and bakes and the consensus at that time was that if you had to pop them, you were probably going to die.

Terrible.

 

[deepsouth]

Thoughts and prayers to go out.

A really good mate of mine has been a volunteer fire fighter in most states of Aus in his air force time.

He reckons his most eye opening moment was going to help his mother defend her property in the very large Forcett fire in January. He was fire fighting to one paddock from the house, on the fringe of that huge fire - but without a fully fitted truck etc.... And it was family, not more distant.

He went from doing an 80 hour work week, then on the Friday night drove 2 hours to this property and then went 48 hours without sleep due to constant wind changes swirling the fire.

And I recall listening to the radio reports as the fire absolutely took off.


I think it takes both dedication, community focus and a certain amount of nuttiness to go and stare down a fire.

 

[turnkey4099]

Second. The greatest was 28 in one spot in the Idaho blowup of 1910. Over 70 firefighters total died in the fire.

Thanks, I was aware of that fire and deaths but not how many. Been through the fire area several times. Last time was about 40 years ago and it was well covered with new growth then.

Harry K

 

[ZeroJunk]

Makes me glad I live where it is too wet for wild fires to be much more than a nuisance.

 

[turbo885]

I am involved in a lot of fundraisers with a local volunteer dept. here and this really hits close to home and makes you think how much these folks really give and risk. Alot of the time with very little appreciation but they go anyway. There isnt many people that risk there life without getting paid.

Some of the longest nights i have had was in front of the scanner with a structure fire knowing my little brother was in there.


BILL

 

[tdi-rick]

A really good mate of mine has been a volunteer fire fighter in most states of Aus in his air force time.

If that's who I think it is he drives a Defender 110 ?

 

[rmihalek]

It's a terrible feeling. I had to wait what seemed like eons to get hold of a friend to see if her husband survived the South Canyon fire. He did. He was on the crew where 14 died.

We called the fire shelters, shake and bakes and the consensus at that time was that if you had to pop them, you were probably going to die.

Terrible.

The local news interviewed a fire marshall from AZ and he said that the air can very quickly go from breathable to well over 500F at which point breathing is not possible. I always thought it was the flames that got you, I never thought about superheated air.

 

[bootboy]

The local news interviewed a fire marshall from AZ and he said that the air can very quickly go from breathable to well over 500F at which point breathing is not possible. I always thought it was the flames that got you, I never thought about superheated air.

We called them baked potatoes. When I went through my full fire academy, our wild land instructor told us that the shelters can actually have the air sucked out and what little is left is super heated and seared lungs are what get you, though you may pass out from the heat first. Either way, not a way is want to go. Deploying your shelter doesn't mean certain death, I know of a few guys that have been burned over, that was when they decided on a career change.

 

[landyboy]

Shockingly sad loss of life.RIP.Put themselves in harms way to protect their communities.

 

[SawTroll]

I heard this on the way in to work this morning. So, so sad. I'm sure most of them were in the prime of their life. My condolences go out to their family and loved ones.

Yes, not much else to say really. :msp_sad:


It was at the top of the news even over here.

 

[slowp]

I don't think they did anything wrong. I don't know all the facts. They had a lookout, like you are supposed to have, and he told them to get out, but the fire blew up too fast.

Perhaps the emphasis should be on getting landowners, govt. and private, to thin out and do some prevention work so fires won't get so big. Thinning and controlled burning work. The former takes labor and money, the latter causes residents to complain about the smoke. Controlled burns sometimes become uncontrolled.

What do you do when people live in places that are prone to burning? Maybe we should just not put people in such places to defend the houses? What do you do? When I was going on fires, we were told that our agency does not protect houses. That was for the fire departments to do. Things have changed.

We ask these questions every fire season. Then the rains and snow come and everything is forgotten. This tragedy ought to make folks think about where they live and what they could do, but it won't. We'll lose more people in years to come. I'm guilty too. I have trees closer to the house than I should, but I want my privacy. Our area isn't very burny, but it can burn if conditions are just right. If I lived on the drier side of the mountains, I'd definitely be thinning and pruning. That's what it takes. Perhaps we need to think of it as saving lives instead of fire prevention?

 

[griffonks]

On that crew only the lookout survived. There is so much dead standing pine beetle forests in Colorado that it's not feasible to clear all of it. It's a tinderbox and now the Spruce is beginning to die from some sort of a white scale. Most of the homes in the Black Forest apparently were mitigated but it didn't help much.

Our gun hating Governor has refused a state wide fire ban for some reason. Though we had some rain this week, the worst part of the fire season is still to come.

God Bless that lost crew and the lone survivor, he must be suffering horribly.

 

[Ironworker]

Found this, all of them were young men who went to work that day.

 

[Karl Robbers]

I don't think they did anything wrong. I don't know all the facts. They had a lookout, like you are supposed to have, and he told them to get out, but the fire blew up too fast.

Perhaps the emphasis should be on getting landowners, govt. and private, to thin out and do some prevention work so fires won't get so big. Thinning and controlled burning work. The former takes labor and money, the latter causes residents to complain about the smoke. Controlled burns sometimes become uncontrolled.

What do you do when people live in places that are prone to burning? Maybe we should just not put people in such places to defend the houses? What do you do? When I was going on fires, we were told that our agency does not protect houses. That was for the fire departments to do. Things have changed.

We ask these questions every fire season. Then the rains and snow come and everything is forgotten. This tragedy ought to make folks think about where they live and what they could do, but it won't. We'll lose more people in years to come. I'm guilty too. I have trees closer to the house than I should, but I want my privacy. Our area isn't very burny, but it can burn if conditions are just right. If I lived on the drier side of the mountains, I'd definitely be thinning and pruning. That's what it takes. Perhaps we need to think of it as saving lives instead of fire prevention?

I hear what you are saying. Too often good men and women are placed in harms way to protect an unknowing and uncaring public who expect it, by a government who lacks the gumption to enact and enforce rules that are required. Lessons are not learned and the cycle starts again.
I remember well being on a large fire that had a real set of legs. Any hope of controlling it in the prevailing conditions was futile, so every unit ended up on Structure Protection. I was the leader of a crew of four, all of us experienced, so we were tasked with a particularly difficult structure. Long story short, we saved the structure and the owner was grateful etc etc. He was going to clear a buffer zone around his home and all sorts of things. Well here we are 7 years later and I went back to the area for a look. The property is more overgrown than ever and I would rate it as borderline undefendable. I asked myself "why did we bother at all". Sooner or later, another fire will start and another crew will put themselves in harms way for a civilian who obviously will not learn.
As a result of the inquiry into the Black Saturday fires in Victoria - 177 deaths I believe, the Tasmania Fire Service along with other State fire Agencies, has changed its focus. On days of catastrophic fire danger, our focus is no longer to put large wildfires out, instead it is to provide timely and accurate information to facilitate the evacuation and relocation of people in imminent danger. Every Brigade has its own list of vulnerable people, sick, elderly or disabled etc within its brigade area and will pay particular attention to them as well as assets such as hospitals, schools and nursing homes. Communities have identified safe refuges that can be defended if need be and are encouraged to relocate to these if threatened by fire. Everything else can be replaced, life cannot.
All I hope is that from tragedies like this, lessons are learned and remembered before others lose their lives.

 

[slowp]

Karl Robbers, that makes total sense. I've been on a big fire and wondered why we were there. There was no way we were going to get it out. We had to run from it every day at noon, and we almost got trapped once, all for dead lodgepole pine near a wilderness area. No houses, no people. Just dead and dying lodgepole pine.

People need to realize that once a fire gets to a large size, and if there are dry fuels everywhere, that fire is not going to go out until the weather changes or the fuels run out. We shouldn't be putting folks in the way of it, risking their lives.

 

[SawTroll]

Karl Robbers, that makes total sense. I've been on a big fire and wondered why we were there. There was no way we were going to get it out. We had to run from it every day at noon, and we almost got trapped once, all for dead lodgepole pine near a wilderness area. No houses, no people. Just dead and dying lodgepole pine.

People need to realize that once a fire gets to a large size, and if there are dry fuels everywhere, that fire is not going to go out until the weather changes or the fuels run out. We shouldn't be putting folks in the way of it, risking their lives.

Yes! :msp_smile:

 

[1Alpha1]

I may or may not have mentioned anything about the weather and it's role in the deaths.

We've had some horrendous winds in this area lately. Not just blowing winds, but winds that slap you back and forth like crazy. That and the fact, that our monsoon season is upon us.

Differing storm fronts are mostly to blame. Lots of high and low pressure fronts battling each other, and unusually high temps, created the perfect storm.

We also have a huge wildfire up in the area of Kingman, just off I-40. So far, it's 0% contained and no loss of life. Kingman is NW of Yarnell.

 

[Philbert]

The loss of these firefighters is tragic. I don't know how much of their specific situation was related to protecting property and structures, or just attempting to control the general spread of the fire. A very hazardous occupation.

We run into constant, two-edged swords in these situations. People do not want to be told what to do with their land, where they can build, how they can build, etc. There is resistance to zoning laws and building codes. Folks in OK don't want to be told that they have to have storm shelters and roof tie-downs. Folks in S. California like the look of cedar shingles. Folks on the coast and along rivers like living right on the water. But they all want to be rescued and 'made whole' when things go bad.

I don't want to take this into the political forum. But there needs to be clarification on what they can expect in each case. E.g. if they are they 'on their own' if they build outside of the boundaries and codes, or if they can expect the Calvary to rush in and protect them. We still have to manage fire and other hazards, but we need to take steps to avoid additional risks for responders.

Philbert

 

[1Alpha1]

The loss of these firefighters is tragic. I don't know how much of their specific situation was related to protecting property and structures, or just attempting to control the general spread of the fire. A very hazardous occupation.

We run into constant, two-edged swords in these situations. People do not want to be told what to do with their land, where they can build, how they can build, etc. There is resistance to zoning laws and building codes. Folks in OK don't want to be told that they have to have storm shelters and roof tie-downs. Folks in S. California like the look of cedar shingles. Folks on the coast and along rivers like living right on the water. But they all want to be rescued and 'made whole' when things go bad.

I don't want to take this into the political forum. But there needs to be clarification on what they can expect in each case. E.g. if they are they 'on their own' if they build outside of the boundaries and codes, or if they can expect the Calvary to rush in and protect them. We still have to manage fire and other hazards, but we need to take steps to avoid additional risks for responders.

Philbert

The 19 that perished, were working far away from any structures. They were attempting to control the general spread of the fire.

During all the news (media) coverage, the topic of responsibility came up quite often, in regards to wild land fire fighters. Supposedly, wild land fire fighters have no obligation to save any structures, as their duty is to wild land coverage only. But, there has been a lot of gray area, as to what they were told to do in this particular situation, due to the close proximity of the town.

 

[Philbert]

Thanks for clarifying that Dano.

I hope that they can learn something from this event that will help other fire fighters in the future, and not just attribute it to 'things happening' or 'fires are unpredictable' - while I know that those are both true . . .

Philbert