2 cycle oil warning

[timberwolf]

shoerfast, you won't get more from 89 vs 87 check out the thread on octane. On any given day at any given gas station the real life octane of gas from a 87 or 89 pump could be anywhere from low 80s to 90, who knows?

 

[Koa Man]

At the recent TCI, the head engineer from Echo, who has been with the company for 31 years, gave a very interesting seminar on 2 cycle maintenance. He discussed oils, and what labels to look for. He also said the 2nd biggest problem after using poor quality oil was gasoline. He said do not use 87 octane, use 89 min. and he recommended premium for any small engine. He had many actual cutaway engine parts and slides to show what he was talking about. I will take his word for it....they have done thousands of hours of lab testing. I will stick to what I have been using, Echo PowerBlend and premium gas for my stuff. I don't care what others use, it ain't mine.

 

[2Coilinveins]

Klick, I run MX2T in my stuff, I'm real interested in your opinion on it after you get done testing.

 

[bwalker]

oils that I tell every one of my customers to stay away from: AMS OIL, MAXIMA, KLOTZ. All 3 of these oils have a severe tendancy of sepperating, laying on the piston and burning in the cylinder. These oils lube the bearings great and coat very well, but the coating is the problem. These oils actually sepparate from the gas and coat the surfaces and works great if there is no direct contact with flame. Where there is direct contact with flame; it tends to burn, creating a severe carbon build up. In all 3

Dean, Thats BS. Firt off, two cycle oils are DESIGNED to seperate from the fuel once they reach the engine. As you can imagine mixed fuel isnt a very good lubricant. They are also designed to burn when they reach the combustion chamber. Oils that do not burn, or partially burn are what causes depsoits you see. While I wouldnt use Klotz or Scamsoil , Maxima is OK depending on what product you use.

 

[klickitatsacket]

Ben I usually try not to tangle up with you on this issue as I feel you know quite a bit about it. I chased down every link, thread or article you posted and as a result was convinced to switch to 40:1. With that said; I will tell you that I will disagree with you on this one. I have torn down litterally thousands of saws and built hundreds of modified saws. What I stated is from thousands of hours of engine tear down and builds. Take mix oil, put a thin layer in a frying pan and broil it at 500 degrees in your oven. (this is not for the married guy) Eventually it will carbon up. Your piston is nothing more than a frying pan in a broiler.It might very well be that oils are suppose to sepperate to a degree, but the oils that sepperate to the point that a thick, tacky layer coats the top of the piston, fills the gaps in and around the rings or collects in the crank case are a problem. The oils that I see do this eventually lay on the surface, sticking and forming carbon build up. In the case of the rings the carbon and fresh oil create a nasty mix that will stick rings faster than a wet tongue on a frozen metal pole. I know a racer who uses the Maxima 927 in his race saws but will not run it in his work saws for this very reason. The extra lubrication is great but you can not use it everyday with out it causing problems. If you want to tear down your engine every so often to clean it, well then you will most likely have better protection. I say though that 99.9% of all saw owners are never going to be that anal retentive about the care that their saw recieves.

 

[bwalker]

Take mix oil, put a thin layer in a frying pan and broil it at 500 degrees in your oven. (this is not for the married guy) Eventually it will carbon up.

I am failing to see anything in common betweena fying pan at 500 degrees and a combustion chamber under pressure with a EGT of over 1000 degrees.

It might very well be that oils are suppose to sepperate to a degree, but the oils that sepperate to the point that a thick, tacky layer coats the top of the piston, fills the gaps in and around the rings or collects in the crank case are a problem.

They are absolutley ment to seperate. How could they not? After all In a properly running engine 90% of the gasoline going into the combustion chamber is in vapor form. As soon as the fuel evaporates, the oil drops out and coats all the internal parts. This is 2 cycle lube 101.

Dean, I dont want it to seam like I am picking on you, but honetly I think you should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe. After all you have began to mod saws and sell your services on this site. Its in your best interest to not make comments that are not factual in basis. It not only harms your reputation, but it propogates misinformtion, which is rampant on this particular subject.

 

[whatsnext]

I'm going to stick up for 927 also. I first bought it for my new Beta Zero because I liked the smell. I ran it at 50-1 with blue AV gas which is pretty oily for a trials bike. The second owner pulled the cyl after I ran the bike for eight years because he was worried about Maxima's rep. He wasted his time because that piston looked new and it had to have 1000 hours on it. I used to change the plug once a year whether the bike needed it or not. It never did.
John...

 

[bwalker]

Here is a piston run on MX2T.
http://arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4081
And one ran on 927.
http://arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3427

I first bought it for my new Beta Zero because I liked the smell. I ran it at 50-1 with blue AV gas which is pretty oily for a trials bike. The second

I would hate to see what your muffler and pipe looked like. 1000 hours is a huge amount on a trials bike. How long did you own it?

 

[bwalker]

The list of true synthetic oils is a lot shorter then the list of oils that are advertized as synthetic oil. 95% of what you see on the shelf at the parts store that says synthetic oil is not true synthetic oil.

Thats a very true statement, Eric, but it really only pertains to four stroke, crank case oils. Two cycle oils advertised as synthetic or synthetic blends almost always contain ester or PIB which are "real" synthetic blend stocks.

 

[klickitatsacket]

I am failing to see anything in common betweena fying pan at 500 degrees and a combustion chamber under pressure with a EGT of over 1000 degrees.

They are absolutley ment to seperate. How could they not? After all In a properly running engine 90% of the gasoline going into the combustion chamber is in vapor form. As soon as the fuel evaporates, the oil drops out and coats all the internal parts. This is 2 cycle lube 101.

Dean, I dont want it to seam like I am picking on you, but honetly I think you should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe. After all you have began to mod saws and sell your services on this site. Its in your best interest to not make comments that are not factual in basis. It not only harms your reputation, but it propogates misinformtion, which is rampant on this particular subject.

First off if it will carbonize at 500 degrees it will do it more so at 1000 degrees. That is the point and for you that should be easy to see. #2 Atomized and vaporized are 2 entirely differant things. The fuel is atomized in the lower end and does not become vaporized until it hits the hot surfaces of the piston and cylinder walls. Yes some of the fuel in the crank case is vaporized but not 90%.
My comments on the 3 oils named is that they tend to sepperate and leave a thick residue that burns in the cylinder. This does not combust and leave as exhaust but rather carbonizes on the surfaces. You can also see simular effects of this if some one is running dull chain and loading the engine up or if the air filter is plugged. I do not see this with Husky or stihl mix. If there is carbon build up with these oils it is dry and hard and is from running the saw with dull chain or dirty air filter. With the "wonder oils" the carbon build up is sticky. This sticky substance (carbon and fuel/ oil mix) is the main culprate in rings sticking.
BTW Ben, I don't think you are picking on me. I think you are trying to make an arguement on statements that were not to your liking. Oh yeah, one other thing: I did not start modifying saws to sell on this sight. I had been doing it for other long before I found this sight. I only started advertising here becasue the audiance was so big.
It's your turn to buy drinks.

 

[bwalker]

irst off if it will carbonize at 500 degrees it will do it more so at 1000 degrees

This anology is ridiculous and in no way analogous. To argue other wise is futile.

The fuel is atomized in the lower end and does not become vaporized until it hits the hot surfaces of the piston and cylinder walls. Yes some of the fuel in the crank case is vaporized but not 90%.

Fuel is "atomized" by the carb and IS "vaporised" once inside the motor. This is FACT. Do some research. Atomised mixture hitting a hot, flailing con rod and crank assembly will quickly vaporise. Dont believe me? Pour some gas on a saw cylinder after it has made a cut. The fuel will quickly vaporise.

 

[bwalker]

I might also point out that the end point of many gasolines is less than 300 degrees. Can you see now why the fuel turns to vapor once inside a motor?

 

[klickitatsacket]

I agree that the fuel vaporizes some but that has more to do with the underside of the piston than the crank. The wet fuel is the carrier of the oil. vaporized and sepperated mix will not lube the bearings or the piston. If 90% of the fuel was vaporized off; then you would have a pool of oil in the crank case; and it would have to be sufficiant enough for the crank to splash it on the bearings and on the cylinder walls.
Now who wants a Bush Light?

 

[Koa Man]

Pour some gas on a saw cylinder after it has made a cut. The fuel will quickly vaporise.

Isn't that a little dangerous?

 

[NWCS]

guys calm down, have a beer and kick back. i see some great points in this thread. but let me point out some great info i found from my fav oil company..

http://www.maximausa.com/technical/oilmigration.html

 

[klickitatsacket]

NWCS, you ought to see the husky 2100 sitting here on the shop floor.

 

[klickitatsacket]

I can say I am not upset at the very least. This is a great conversation.

 

[NWCS]

sure dean.. grind it in and make it hurt.. you know my thing with 2100's..

 

[bwalker]

I agree that the fuel vaporizes some but that has more to do with the underside of the piston than the crank. The wet fuel is the carrier of the oil. vaporized and sepperated mix will not lube the bearings or the piston. If 90% of the fuel was vaporized off; then you would have a pool of oil in the crank case; and it would have to be sufficiant enough for the crank to splash it on the bearings and on the cylinder walls.

A crank whipping around at 13000 is enough to move the oil around, wouldnt you agree? Anagain its a fact that the fuel entering a two cycle motor vaporises soon after it enters the engine.

 

[klickitatsacket]

I would agree that the crank will whip the oil onto the bearings if there is a resevoir of oil like on a air cooled 4 stroke engine. Yes I do agree that a portion of the fuel does vaporize when it hits the undderside of the piston. Would you also agree though that oil laying on the piston and burning is a serious problem? BAR Winch we need another round. Make it Pendleton on the rocks