661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?

[MustangMike]

Brad, please clarify, are you stating that you don't think 40:1 is good enough for ported saws? If so, I don't think there has been any evidence of this presented.

 

[Ron660]

When you're done with all that, the only thing we really have is performance indicators. We've still yet to test cleanliness and protection.

Cleanliness is problematic because it will vary GREATLY based on how the saw is used, how it's tuned, if it's ported, and the kind of fuel used.

I'm not sure how to best test the protection factor. I think most all of us would agree that most ANY oil will provide a very long life, probably even at 50:1, and for sure at 32:1. Therefore, I believe the best way to test that is through some kind of torture testing.

The guys on this site that mill can tell us. I know one that prefers Klotz R50 or KL-200 and he's used most of the oils we've talked about.

 

[blsnelling]

I'm still quite uncomfortable with less than 32:1 in a ported saw, most particularly the 372 and 390, and even stock. 32:1 seems to cure that problem. There is plenty of evidence to support that idea. I think Randy might add some other models to that, but not sure.

I'm beginning to wonder if it depends on the oil. MAYBE 40:1 is ideal if using a full ester oil. We haven't proven either way yet. I would rather be safe than sorry though.

 

[blsnelling]

The guys on this site that mill can tell us. I know one that prefers Klotz R50 or KL-200 and he's used most of the oils we've talked about.

Would you mind summarizing his findings here for us? That's certainly HARD use.

 

[Ron660]

800 exceeds jaso-FD how could it be high ash? lol

ron660's piston looks like **** btw so maybe your right!

Yea Redbull, the inside of my cylinder looks like hell with all those deposits!...lol

 

[blsnelling]

View attachment 421556
Yea Redbull, the inside of my cylinder looks like hell with all those deposits!...lol

You're muffler is WET!

 

[redbull660]

How do you know what affects those "non-oil" components have on the over all lubricating qualities of any given oil?

working on a better answer than: they are solvents and solvents don't lubricate, they burn. consulting my notes and also emailed belray... dude just sent a reply. holy ****! ok here ya go!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sir,
Regarding the make up of a typical 2t oil... the non oil components of it... Could you identify them, and what they do or their purpose?
For example -

what are the additives, what do they do, are they part of the actual oil in the bottle that lubricates?

Same thing with solvents
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Solvents are a carrier/filler for 2-stroke premix oils. They serve no purpose other than delivering the oil to the gasoline (which is essentially a solvent itself). Gasoline will typically have more detergency and cleaning ability than the common solvents used in 2-stroke applications. An oil with 20% solvent mixed at 32:1 delivers the exact same amount of oil as a non-solvent oil at 40:1. That’s a 25% decrease in oil than what you think you are delivering to the motor! Solvents also will evaporate from open containers and leave you with a more concentrated container. Even if the cap is on, once the seal is broken on a bottle, it isn’t airtight and solvent will evaporate so there is uncertainty on the actual oil content at that point unless the entire bottle is used right away. There are ways to minimize solvent loss, but most people will just leave the bottle on a shelf in the garage so that isn’t ideal for limiting evaporation.

Non-lube additives – antioxidants, anti-rust, detergents. Anti-rust is obvious, anti-oxidants work to protect the oil and the surfaces from oxidizing (oil breakdown and rust). Detergents work to keep the surfaces free of deposits and keep everything clean. These are all crucial components to a 2-stroke oil but don’t directly effect the lubricity of the oil. The more effective and concentrated of these that you can use, the more room there is in the formula to use lubricity additives and base oils. We use highly concentrated and very high quality additives that do not need high treat rates thus leaving room for the effective additives for lubricity. Lubricity contributing additives include anti-wear, extreme pressure, anti-scuff and friction modifiers. I think they are all pretty self explanatory from their names.

 

[MustangMike]

Brad, I respect your point of view, but this is how I see it (and I presume you would view my ported 046 about the same as a 372),

1) using higher test gas will keep the saw cooler
2) increasing the ratio from 50/1 to 40/1 will provide more protection
3) using an oil with a higher viscosity rating than the Stihl oil further increases protection
4) 40/1 seemed to be the sweet spot in performance/protection in Redbull's testing, and if we were not chasing performance, we would not have gotten our saws ported!

I'll post if I have any failures/problems.

 

[blsnelling]

I like that So now another question, lol. Why add solvents to any oil? I imagine one reason is for injector oils. Any other reason? Simply profitability?

 

[Trx250r180]

View attachment 421556
Yea Redbull, the inside of my cylinder looks like hell with all those deposits!...lol

Do you know how many tanks of fuel /gallons or hours are on this roughly ?

 

[Moparmyway]

Do you know how many tanks of fuel /gallons or hours are on this roughly ?

IIRC................. 2 liters

 

[Trx250r180]

IIRC................. 2 liters

Hir was that clean in my one of my saws after a gallon or so of oil through it ,i would like to see the spark plug if possible ,see if it is burning all dry on the white part .

 

[Mastermind]

I got this one Mike.

Brad is referring to the 372 and the 390 because they are well known to have crankshaft issues. Even stock.

 

[Ron660]

You're muffler is WET!

I run my saws like my women, slightly wet!

 

[Hedgerow]

So the Stihl ultra I'm still running in my air compressor has probably lost it's solvents by now...

Good thing.. As it may not have lasted this last 13 years...

Whew... Dodged a bullet there..

 

[Ron660]

Do you know how many tanks of fuel /gallons or hours are on this roughly ?

Let me add up all the oil I've used in it: almost two 6-packs of stihl ultra, several bottles of Redmax, a couple of premix bottles of VP, and almost two liters of Motul 800 off-road. Probably around 30 gallons....not a lot.

 

[Ron660]

I run my saws like my women, slightly wet!

Just joking I have a wonderful wife. She's a hybrid....good one.

 

[mdavlee]

Would you mind summarizing his findings here for us? That's certainly HARD use.

I burned 1 gallon of oils last year milling. R50 showed no wear or build up. KL 200 was the same. K2 works great but the fumes are a bit rough. H1R I can't stand and on a couple saws I couldn't get it rich enough for my liking. 800 works good with no build up and will leave a wet piston even if you run out mid cut from a full tank.

 

[Hedgerow]

stihl ultra doesn't have solvents

http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf

But did they 13 years ago?

 

[blsnelling]

I burned 1 gallon of oils last year milling. R50 showed no wear or build up. KL 200 was the same. K2 works great but the fumes are a bit rough. H1R I can't stand and on a couple saws I couldn't get it rich enough for my liking. 800 works good with no build up and will leave a wet piston even if up run out mid cut from a full tank.

That's quite the testimonial. Unless there are significant performance gains to be found with a less viscous oil like Motul 710 or Maxima Super M, I see no reason for you to consider anything else. The only other reason I could think of would be the cost factor for someone doing that much cutting all the time.