A better explanation...

[Whitespider]

And by the way guys... the situation does reverse as the outside air warms up.

Our low temp this morning started out at 27[sup]o[/sup] (which is one heck of a lot warmer than it's been for two months) and reached a high of 39[sup]o[/sup] (we haven't been above freezing since December... well, maybe once) with very light wind. I loaded the firebox with elm and ash (not oak) this morning at 5:00 AM (house was 69[sup]o[/sup]) and not a single stick has been added since... and now, 14 hours later at 7:00 PM IT'S 76[sup]o[/sup] IN THIS HOUSE, with just a few coals at the back of the box. The wife tells me it was 79[sup]o[/sup] in here around 3:00 PM and she finally opened the doors for a little while.

This EPA box is a more efficient heater than the old dragon when the weather is warmer... but a far less efficient heater when the temps drop down around zero (in this house). It-just-flat-is-what-it-is.

 

[Arbonaut]

Well I stand corrected and apologize - not my intention to ruffle feathers. This just has not been my experience.

You didn't do nothihg wrong. Whitespider, why ya getting hostile? Are you getting drunk? Bushbow has some good points. Anybody that can contribute should. I would also like to see some mc readings as well as some thermal reading on that 82.6 % efficient systyem. (Bull), wood won't do it without lab condition gassification that's all. Every time this is the same, that's why another thread. Now I'm keybard warrior, and Del_ is gonna school ya. Just like old times.

 

[Arbonaut]

You shoulda called this thread, "A better explanation...".

 

[Whitespider]

Hey Ace... I admitted my fault and apologized for my "hostility."

 

[Arbonaut]

Hey Ace... I admitted my fault and apologized for my "hostility."

I know. Hahaha. Just screwin' around. I'm done.

 

[Oxford]

Whitespider,

I like figuring out how to repurpose something as much as the next guy, and figuring out a problem even better than that, but have you considered that your appliance is just too small? From previous description, you live in an old, uninsulated home with poor windows in a windy cold climate, which I do as well. From manufacturer data which you have quoted in this thread, that appliance is 82.6% efficient at a rated 72kBTU input, meaning roughly 59kBTU input to the space through distribution ductwork that, while you put some thought into it, it wasn't designed to use.

Figuring 40 BTU/sf as a guideline- and that's probably not enough given the above description of your home- you need about 80kBTU for your home if it is 2000 sf, so you need an appliance about a third bigger, I reckon. Probably more like half again, really, maybe more than that on a windy cold day.

Just a thought,

Oxford

 

[noodle]

Spider, I dont have a better explanation and I have not read every reply to this or other posts on the subject so if others have said this already I appologize. Maybe all EPA non cat stoves arent the same. Just like all smoke dragons arent the same. Is it possible that with a different epa stove you may of had a different experience. Just saying. At the end of the day you paid alot of money for something that your not happy with and that would piss me off too.

 

[Oxford]

Noodle,

At the end of the day you paid alot of money for something that your not happy with and that would piss me off too.

No, he didn't. He got it for free and has been trying to hammer a round peg into a square hole ever since.

 

[Arbonaut]

It make sense to me that it burns right or most efficiently in the marginal season, as the opposite is the biggest complaint with solid fuel appliance users.

You can't hardly turn 'em down enough in the spring and fall. Cut more wood and open windows- that's usually par for the course in the marginal heating season. That's when the creosote gets formed from burning even the dryest fuel. It is the kind of pretense the EPA is designing these under when you and I know the true goal is chaos and retardation. A better way? Just turn the damn thing off and put on a hemp sweater. And save the whales and them stupid polar bears.

 

[Oxford]

That heater isn't less efficient at lower outdoor temperatures, it's just plain not big enough to keep up with the home's heat losss.

 

[Whitespider]

...that appliance is 82.6% efficient at a rated 72kBTU input, meaning roughly 59kBTU input to the space through distribution ductwork... ...you need about 80kBTU for your home if it is 2000 sf, so you need an appliance about a third bigger...

No, that's not correct. The stove is rated at 72,000 BTU output... efficiency rating has nothing to do with that. Efficiency rating is how well it extracts heat from the wood... not a percentage of the rated output. The area I'm heating through the forced air system is three small bedrooms, a kitchen and bathroom and an open living/dining room... something under 1200 square feet. For reference, the gas furnace is rated at 60,000 BTU and does not (or did not) struggle to heat the place... even in extreme cold.

 

[noodle]

Noodle,

At the end of the day you paid alot of money for something that your not happy with and that would piss me off too.

No, he didn't. He got it for free and has been trying to hammer a round peg into a square hole ever since.

I wish mine was free. $3000. It does work well though.

 

[Arbonaut]

That heater isn't less efficient at lower outdoor temperatures, it's just plain not big enough to keep up with the home's heat losss.

*DING*

There is no way you can expect to heat an Iowa home the way I've heard this one described with less than 90,000. I'm not for squeaking by. Throw a brick at it, not a little marble. I built enough homes, too that I can advise ya to look around your rim joist area with a basement for heat loss. All that area above ground is heat loss like a ribbon of conductor draining the house. Mine is so bad, it melts snow. You guys won't hear me complain unless the house is less than 76 degrees. 200,000 BTU boiler and 4000 sq ft. If you are gonna heat with wood, don't get stingy with the wood. Walk around turning off light bulbs or something else.

 

[stihly dan]

Spidey, The draft being to much in cold weather with the temp difference. Sucking more air over the fire rather than thru the air wash. Makes perfect sense. I would love to see you try a bdr on the next cold snap. If it works, this info could be very helpful to a lot of other people having the same problem.
Most get set at around 4

 

[Whitespider]

That heater isn't less efficient at lower outdoor temperatures, it's just plain not big enough to keep up with the home's heat loss.

There is no way you can expect to heat an Iowa home the way I've heard this one described with less than 90,000.

So what is your explanation for the fact that a non-EPA stove of the same size (actually a touch smaller), and converted into the same forced air configuration, was able to make us sweat in the same extreme cold, using LESS WOOD!

Like I said in the original post to this thread... those explanations don't cut it, there has to be something more.
I'm trying to think and reason in multiple dimensions... you, on the other hand are not.
And this single-dimensional thinking continues even when others post they have experienced the exact same problems with other makes and models of EPA stoves... still others using them under different condition have not had those problems.

Some of you ain't seeing the complete picture.

 

[haveawoody]

My stove is the exact opposite.
When it's mildish it's quite difficult to keep a hardwood fire going, heating and wood burning seems semi poor even with air at 100%.
Mild in my stove = silver maple or sad hardwood fires.

Now in the cold or real cold my stove tends to burn real well, so well that the house tends to get quite hot even with the air being turned down quite low.

Wood use for me with my epa i would guess at 1/2 my old stove over the last 3 seasons.

This year although it seemed like a mildish winter it seemed to be a big year for wood usage.
I'm about 1 face beyond a normal season already so a difficult one to judge a new stove.
2 full cord is pretty typical for me and this winter i would guess 2.5 cord will be used so 25%-30% more than normal.
Not sure if this helps in making a would usage guess on yours vs what the old the used.
My old stove was always about 4 cords usage, more on an odd winter.

 

[Oxford]

From the manufacturer:


Heating Capacity will vary depending on type of wood, floor plan, house layout, heat loss of home, and geographical location.


You are fighting at least two of those, as far as I can tell.

You are correct that I misread the ratings. I deal with large gas burners regularly and that calculation is ingrained in my mind.

 

[Arbonaut]

My stove is the exact opposite.
.

What's your elevation?

 

[Whitespider]

From the manufacturer:
Heating Capacity will vary depending on type of wood, floor plan, house layout, heat loss of home, and geographical location.

You are fighting at least two of those, as far as I can tell.

Now you're finally starting to get it... that's what this thread (especially the link I provided in the original post) is all about. My "floor plan, house layout, heat loss of home, and geographical location" as well as chimney configuration and probably some other things are causing the EPA design to be far less efficient... because the testing procedure mandated by the EPA does not reflect the "real world" where I live and heat. The EPA required test conditions are specific... which cause a major flaw in the design under certain "real world" conditions. Although nothing can be "flaw proof"... without the EPA (poorly thought-out) regulations manufactures could, and would , alter or offer designs and/or adjustments for different applications. As it is, they can not, because they must meet EPA specifications burning dimensional lumber, with a 15 foot stack, in warm weather.

It is not possible to set one single specification and expect it to work in all situations... wood stoves or foot ware or whatever. Yet this is exactly what the government has done time and time again... it really is idiotic.

 

[Oxford]

No, what I see is a guy trying to hammer the aforementioned square peg into a round hole, bullying people with almost-engineering and quasi-physics if they dare suggest any reason that his home brew heater won't work the way he thinks it should, no matter how much much smarter than the rest of the world he thinks he is.

For example, some reasonable people have suggested that the way that your chimney drafts, and the way that draft is affected by the other appliances you have venting in the same chimney, may be affecting the burn times and "coaling" you are observing. Your response has been to either ignore these suggestions or discount them out of hand.

Others have suggested that since you have completely repurposed this appliance that it is perhaps unreasonable for you to expect it to work exactly as you wish, since its original design was not intended for this application and your subsequent modifications have been strictly by the seat of your pants. I'm not discounting that method, by the way, as most of us in the problem solving business operate that way at least some of the time, but you have to be willing to accept that sometimes you're wrong, that your intuition is incorrect. Your response has been to belittle those suggestions as "linear thinking," whatever that is. Perhaps, but I have noticed that none of the linear thinkers are regularly complaining that their wood heated homes are uncomfortable.

Finally, I suggested that your new stove may be too small, which you responded to saying that your old stove heated better with less wood. Maybe so, in a different year with different wood. Even if your contention is empirically true, it begs the question of why you changed it out and further the question of why you have not returned it to service. Leaving those questions aside, heat loss is heat loss and living in an old house myself I believe the numbers don't lie.

Regardless, it will be interesting to see how your experience with yet another stove turns out. I expect that it will give you ample opportunity to explain to those of us as yet unenlightened just how much smarter you are than the EPA and all those pointy-headed engineers with their soft hands and desk jobs.