A different way to sharpen a chain.

[ray benson]

NW9OS.....(Art Martin: Will the real logger please stand up) - thread is a good read. Here is one of the insightful posts by Art.

Since there are so many new members joining the Arboristsite, now would be a good time to discuss how a chain cuts. With some paraphrasing and excerpts from articles that I have read and were authored by chain saw manufactures, I will try to explain what happens when you start your saw and begin to make a cut. Most people don’t think much about the process, they just hold the saw and eventually the log is severed by this mean, dangerous and fast turning tool attached to a loud, noisy engine.
Most people are also surprised to learn that a tooth must actually leave the guide bar groove to cut wood efficiently. The chain cuts by a “porpoising” action. It resembles a porpoise swimming in the ocean. The leading edge of the tooth starts the “bite” causing the tooth to rock back as far as the depth gauge will allow it. The tooth is now in the cutting position. The cutter now leaves the groove of the bar and goes into the wood. The tension of the chain now increases and the power of the engine pulls the chain back out of the wood and the severed chip exits from the underside of the cutter (chip channel). The tooth now returns to its original position and the process is repeated over and over by the teeth on the chain.
The depth gauges are often referred to as “rakers”. The actual function of the depth gauge is to determine how far the tooth will rock back and how big of a bite it will take. In real softwood, the depth gauge will sometimes sink into the wood itself and cause the saw to bog down. On real softwood it may be better to run the chain with higher depth gauges. The “clearance angle” of the cutter is the reason why a tooth is able to rock back and take its bite. The clearance angle is the downward slope of the tooth as it goes from front to rear. The rear of the tooth is lower than the front. Without a clearance angle, the cutter would not be able to rock out the wood.

 

[Crofter]

Well that statement is a good indication that you are either trolling or your powers of observation are such that you are going nowhere with this.

John Henry, your sympathies are rather easily aroused; perhaps your bladder is close to your eyes!

I think we are being trolled maybe by two people. I see lots of countering info being posted not just bashing!

 

[RiverRat2]

seems to be a little off since all cutters are moving at the same speed since they are all attached together. One tooth can't cut slower than the next.

As in all scientific theory, if one of the fundamental assumptions is wrong, the remaining jibberish is to be discarded
He's talking about cutting speed perpendicular to the chain (i.e. depth speed).

I am not about to get into any theories of chain cutting, since I simply don't know a lot about it, but wanted to comment that you all seem a little hard on this guy. And you are doing it without making any objective statements that either agree with or contradict the things he's saying. If there's gibberish in what he's saying, tell us where it is and why it is.

I'm interested in learning about this topic, so was hoping that some of the experts on this stuff come out with some comments one way or the other.

Hold on there bud!!!!


Read this,,,, (Post # 87) from the thread I was talking about,,,, I am by no means and expert,,,, but Arts words make more sense to me,,,,

NW9OS.....(Art Martin: Will the real logger please stand up) - thread is a good read. Here is one of the insightful posts by Art.

Since there are so many new members joining the Arboristsite, now would be a good time to discuss how a chain cuts. With some paraphrasing and excerpts from articles that I have read and were authored by chain saw manufactures, I will try to explain what happens when you start your saw and begin to make a cut. Most people don’t think much about the process, they just hold the saw and eventually the log is severed by this mean, dangerous and fast turning tool attached to a loud, noisy engine.
Most people are also surprised to learn that a tooth must actually leave the guide bar groove to cut wood efficiently. The chain cuts by a “porpoising” action. It resembles a porpoise swimming in the ocean. The leading edge of the tooth starts the “bite” causing the tooth to rock back as far as the depth gauge will allow it. The tooth is now in the cutting position. The cutter now leaves the groove of the bar and goes into the wood. The tension of the chain now increases and the power of the engine pulls the chain back out of the wood and the severed chip exits from the underside of the cutter (chip channel). The tooth now returns to its original position and the process is repeated over and over by the teeth on the chain.
The depth gauges are often referred to as “rakers”. The actual function of the depth gauge is to determine how far the tooth will rock back and how big of a bite it will take. In real softwood, the depth gauge will sometimes sink into the wood itself and cause the saw to bog down. On real softwood it may be better to run the chain with higher depth gauges. The “clearance angle” of the cutter is the reason why a tooth is able to rock back and take its bite. The clearance angle is the downward slope of the tooth as it goes from front to rear. The rear of the tooth is lower than the front. Without a clearance angle, the cutter would not be able to rock out the wood.

 

[N9WOS]

If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
I won’t be coming back.

 

[Crofter]

If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
I won’t be coming back.

You lost it when you talked about wanting a 45 deg or more top plate and lots of hook and then mentioned you could cut a whole day without sharpening. Insisting that the chain does not come away from the bar when the saw is revved up raised another red flag for me.

You have put a lot of though into your argument whether it is a concoction or not I cant be sure. Your insistence on having your opinion accepted as fact is a bit optimistic, especially when it flys in the face of the established understanding:you are going to have to have more patient and persevering than this if you are going to be a man of science!

Does anyone remember "Beginner"?

 

[scotclayshooter]

Pics would help.
But Im with Crofter on the angles and the chain staying sharp all day.

 

[parrisw]

If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
I won’t be coming back.

Take it easy. Just think what your saying. Your a new guy here. You come here with a really long winded post about a bunch of stuff I couldn't even get through. You lost my interest in the first few sentences. You can't expect everybody's respect with a post like that especially being new around here. Allot of these guys really know their stuff. Just don't expect everybody to believe you when going on and on like this.

 

[ropensaddle]

Ok I know how to sharpen a chain to better than new condition
so don't need help there. I could use help for it staying sharp
but prolly would only get smartazzed replies

 

[belgian]

You lost it when you talked about wanting a 45 deg or more top plate and lots of hook and then mentioned you could cut a whole day without sharpening. Insisting that the chain does not come away from the bar when the saw is revved up raised another red flag for me.

You have put a lot of though into your argument whether it is a concoction or not I cant be sure. Your insistence on having your opinion accepted as fact is a bit optimistic, especially when it flys in the face of the established understanding:you are going to have to have more patient and persevering than this if you are going to be a man of science!

Does anyone remember "Beginner"?

:agree2: :agree2:

 

[windthrown]

Gary

Damn, you got that one right. JHC....

I am lost on this thread. I learned to sharpen chains when I was about 10. My dad gave me the Homelite and a clamp-on-bar file guide and some files with a simple illustrations in a book, and he said, "Go to it." I sharpen at 30 deg. with 0 offset, and set the rakers with a depth gauge. End of story.

Of course if I dropped the rakers with a reverse end around bevel of 28.6 degrees with a 12.435 percent offset, and used high chromium carbon files and a burnisher to polish the edges with, and used depleted uranium alloy tipped chains that you can only get from a US military contractor, then I would get a chain float of 12 microns above the bar. That would allow for better cooling and displacement of the chain in the bar, and better torque angle for more power from the sprocket. Also if we consider the sine wave of the amplitude harmonic oscillations in the chain as it travels along the bar, and where it meets the wood, we would determine that there is more optimum cutting when the chain is moving faster, and thus would use a slightly higher number sprocket when cutting. We would also be inclined to use a larger saw with a larger bar and chain, becasue this would allow the saw to drive a chain at a higher velocity which would gain inertia and thus be better for cutting with. This of course would be the Stihl model MS361 chainsaw, as being the perfect chainsaw to do the job. Using that particular saw, it has been determined that the optimum use of chain would be found when sharpened at 33.567 degrees and a 7.896 offset from zero. The rakers should also be set 12.2 microns lower than specified by the manufacturer, as this will allow for better tooth travel when engaged in celulose. The rakers should also be angled at a 12.3 degree back slope as to engage the celulose at the optimum velocity and cutting angle for more precision cutting. Also to achieve the maximum pleasure using your chainsaw cutting in wood, you should daydream about a hot babe that you will meet for a beer when you are done cutting. That hot babe should be exactly 5'-4" tall, and have a height to weight proportion of not more than 142 pounds. If that is acheived, you will find that the performance of your saw will improve dramatically, and that your perceived cutting time will be cut in half.

 

[MCW]

Damn, you got that one right. JHC....

I am lost on this thread. I learned to sharpen chains when I was about 10. My dad gave me the Homelite and a clamp-on-bar file guide and some files with a simple illustrations in a book, and he said, "Go to it." I sharpen at 30 deg. with 0 offset, and set the rakers with a depth gauge. End of story.

Of course if I dropped the rakers with a reverse end around bevel of 28.6 degrees with a 12.435 percent offset, and used high chromium carbon files and a burnisher to polish the edges with, and used depleted uranium alloy tipped chains that you can only get from a US military contractor, then I would get a chain float of 12 microns above the bar. That would allow for better cooling and displacement of the chain in the bar, and better torque angle for more power from the sprocket. Also if we consider the sine wave of the amplitude harmonic oscillations in the chain as it travels along the bar, and where it meets the wood, we would determine that there is more optimum cutting when the chain is moving faster, and thus would use a slightly higher number sprocket when cutting. We would also be inclined to use a larger saw with a larger bar and chain, becasue this would allow the saw to drive a chain at a higher velocity which would gain inertia and thus be better for cutting with. This of course would be the Stihl model MS361 chainsaw, as being the perfect chainsaw to do the job. Using that particular saw, it has been determined that the optimum use of chain would be found when sharpened at 33.567 degrees and a 7.896 offset from zero. The rakers should also be set 12.2 microns lower than specified by the manufacturer, as this will allow for better tooth travel when engaged in celulose. The rakers should also be angled at a 12.3 degree back slope as to engage the celulose at the optimum velocity and cutting angle for more precision cutting. Also to achieve the maximum pleasure using your chainsaw cutting in wood, you should daydream about a hot babe that you will meet for a beer when you are done cutting. That hot babe should be exactly 5'-4" tall, and have a height to weight proportion of not more than 142 pounds. If that is acheived, you will find that the performance of your saw will improve dramatically, and that your perceived cutting time will be cut in half.

You fool, those specs won't work on the MS361, they're for the MS441! Lucky you didn't kill yourself. Damn amateurs...

 

[reachtreeservi]

If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
I won’t be coming back.

See ya.


It's been fun.

 

[bigjake]

I sharpen both sides so you can flip it over when its dull ??They dont want us
knowing this plus when im drunk if i put the chain on backwards it dont matter.
I also send my wood chips to the lab every hour or so to have them analyzed.
now lets gitter done and go cut

and syne wave is spelled with a why ? dam this gets confusing.LOL

 

[scotclayshooter]

Might find some one with it if we pester them enough lol

Or we pester Tzerd

 

[Stihl 041S]

This is like the movie"Titanic". After it starts you don't just want it to end, you want it to end now.

 

[Tzed250]

Might find some one with it if we pester them enough lol

Or we pester Tzerd

Cripes a mighty!!!


I guess I'm gonna have to find that film....

 

[Nailgunner]

Of course ... a hot babe ... beer ...

Excellent idea

 

[scotclayshooter]

Cripes a mighty!!!


I guess I'm gonna have to find that film....

OOps dyslexik keyboard strikes again sorry Tzed

 

[logbutcher]

Gee, I don't understand a GD thing. The little grey matter seems to have left the container. Why oh why are we not worthy ?
The "beer and babe" I get , but this sharpening treatise .......

PS Msr. Moderator: how does one go about getting those little red things ?

 

[ropensaddle]

Damn, you got that one right. JHC....

I am lost on this thread. I learned to sharpen chains when I was about 10. My dad gave me the Homelite and a clamp-on-bar file guide and some files with a simple illustrations in a book, and he said, "Go to it." I sharpen at 30 deg. with 0 offset, and set the rakers with a depth gauge. End of story.

Of course if I dropped the rakers with a reverse end around bevel of 28.6 degrees with a 12.435 percent offset, and used high chromium carbon files and a burnisher to polish the edges with, and used depleted uranium alloy tipped chains that you can only get from a US military contractor, then I would get a chain float of 12 microns above the bar. That would allow for better cooling and displacement of the chain in the bar, and better torque angle for more power from the sprocket. Also if we consider the sine wave of the amplitude harmonic oscillations in the chain as it travels along the bar, and where it meets the wood, we would determine that there is more optimum cutting when the chain is moving faster, and thus would use a slightly higher number sprocket when cutting. We would also be inclined to use a larger saw with a larger bar and chain, becasue this would allow the saw to drive a chain at a higher velocity which would gain inertia and thus be better for cutting with. This of course would be the Stihl model MS361 chainsaw, as being the perfect chainsaw to do the job. Using that particular saw, it has been determined that the optimum use of chain would be found when sharpened at 33.567 degrees and a 7.896 offset from zero. The rakers should also be set 12.2 microns lower than specified by the manufacturer, as this will allow for better tooth travel when engaged in celulose. The rakers should also be angled at a 12.3 degree back slope as to engage the celulose at the optimum velocity and cutting angle for more precision cutting. Also to achieve the maximum pleasure using your chainsaw cutting in wood, you should daydream about a hot babe that you will meet for a beer when you are done cutting. That hot babe should be exactly 5'-4" tall, and have a height to weight proportion of not more than 142 pounds. If that is acheived, you will find that the performance of your saw will improve dramatically, and that your perceived cutting time will be cut in half.

Yeah I grind mine 25 to 30 degrees with a 60 degree tilt on my sharpener.
I used to just round file them and threw the guide in the trash after 5 to
10 years it was not needed,