Absolutely disgusted with my sharpening

[Philbert]

There are 2 cutting edges on each tooth / cutter: one on the top plate, and one on the side plate. Both edges have to be sharp.

But the 'full chisel' chain that you are using also has a point or 'corner' that leads it into the wood. This point can get ground / abraded away (like yours), or bent, in which case it actually pushes the cutter AWAY from the wood. Does not matter how sharp the other edges are, or what your depth gauges ('rakers') look like if the corner is damaged like that. @Del_ got it right in his post:

See the small white arrow I added? That is about how far you have to go back to get to where metal from the tooth is whole.

Typically, it is easiest to remove that much metal with a chain grinder. It also lets you 'even up' the cutters and start fresh. Maybe pay someone or a shop $7 (or whatever) to save a $20 chain, even if it is just to learn from this, and to practice your filing. Hold it up next to a new chain to see the difference.

All that other stuff matters, but does not seem to be the key issue with the chain in the original photos.

Philbert

 

[JeffRH]

There are 2 cutting edges on each tooth / cutter: one on the top plate, and one on the side plate. Both edges have to be sharp.

But the 'full chisel' chain that you are using also has a point or 'corner' that leads it into the wood. This point can get ground / abraded away (like yours), or bent, in which case it actually pushes the cutter AWAY from the wood. Does not matter how sharp the other edges are, or what your depth gauges ('rakers') look like if the corner is damaged like that. @Del_ got it right in his post:


Typically, it is easiest to remove that much metal with a chain grinder. It also lets you 'even up' the cutters and start fresh. Maybe pay someone $7 (or whatever) to save a $20 chain, even if it is just to learn from this, and to practice your filing.

All that other stuff matters, but does not seem to be the key issue with the chain(s) in the original photos.

Philbert

This seems like a stupid question, but is the corner you're referring to literally the point of the tooth? If not, can you give me an idea of what I'm supposed to be looking for?

 

[Philbert]

This seems like a stupid question, but is the corner you're referring to literally the point of the tooth?

Yes.

. . . also have one of those HF grinders . . .

Only good for light touching up of an edge, IMO. Get someone with a full-sized grinder to bring that chain back.

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/hf-chain-grinder-thread.268303/

With that granberg jig I thought it would be almost impossible to file too deeply once you set it. Everything's done at the same angle with that jig though, but I do find myself putting an awful lot of pressure toward the back of the tooth as I'm filing.

Granberg jig will just help you file whatever angles you dial in. Great tool, but you have to understand what you want the finished tooth to look like. It is not automatic.
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/granberg-file-n-joint-revisited.193630/

If you cover postage both ways, I will make that chain cut like / better than new, if that would help you understand better.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

See Post #415 in this thread for a similar issue:
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philberts-chain-salvage-challenge.245369/page-21

Philbert

 

[4seasons]

I use a sharpening kit like this:

Ever time I fuel the saw up I give each tooth 3 swipes. If I have to push a bit then I use the raker guide and flat file to set them right.
you Harbor Freight grinder is good to use on a chain as bad as yours. Set it up right and don't hold the grinder on the tooth till it turns blue and you can save any chain that isn't broken.

 

[trains]

Yeah I gotcha now. Going to get kind of aggressive with the grinder wheel and take a bit off just to see how it does. Trust me, I know how much I need to learn about sharpening. It wasn't bad when I was just cutting firewood but these stumps are killing me. I hate using my saw anymore because it's so tiring with how much effort has to go into actually using it because the chains are shot.



Oiler works. I actually just checked that yesterday. With them being such poor cutters I get a lot dinner dust than chips so it tends to pack in under the cover, so as a result I have to pay attention to that oiler system. Bar is new. Probably has 20 mins on it from two different sessions.



File I used for this is new save for one or two other sharpenings. I have a sleeve of probably 10 in the garage and I don't hesitate to porch them when they wear. How much pressure do you usually put on your file when you sharpen? And/or how many chains can you sharpen usually before your junk your file?

General question for anyone... It was mentioned earlier that I might be getting too deep with the file. Wouldn't the size of the file limit how deep it could cut the curve? After so deep it would just file the top down and the curve would go no deeper, right?

For the record that is a 6 on the depth gauge and I am using a 3/16" round file. That is correct, right?

I apply light pressure, let the file do the job, I think more of keeping the file in correct orientation than force applied to the tooth, if you have to force the file into the cut, its blunt.
Do you scrape the file back along the tooth after pushing forward on the cutting stroke, if so, you will dull the file quickly.
Always lift the file clear of the tooth on the return stroke.

Some good reading on chain sharpening here.
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philberts-chain-salvage-challenge.245369/page-23

And post clear pictures here, you will get up to speed quickly.
When I started out here, I could not sharpen a chain, I had no idea, but I wanted to learn, now I have enough knowledge to enjoy sharp chains, and to see why they dont cut and fix the problem, have also now helped many friends along the path of knowing how to sharpen properly.
Im sure in time, you will do the same.

 

[JeffRH]

There are 2 cutting edges on each tooth / cutter: one on the top plate, and one on the side plate. Both edges have to be sharp.

But the 'full chisel' chain that you are using also has a point or 'corner' that leads it into the wood. This point can get ground / abraded away (like yours), or bent, in which case it actually pushes the cutter AWAY from the wood. Does not matter how sharp the other edges are, or what your depth gauges ('rakers') look like if the corner is damaged like that. @Del_ got it right in his post:


Typically, it is easiest to remove that much metal with a chain grinder. It also lets you 'even up' the cutters and start fresh. Maybe pay someone or a shop $7 (or whatever) to save a $20 chain, even if it is just to learn from this, and to practice your filing. Hold it up next to a new chain to see the difference.

All that other stuff matters, but does not seem to be the key issue with the chain in the original photos.

Philbert

Going to read over those threads now but you seem to be knowledgeable of the HF grinder so I wanted to ask you a couple of things.

First: the brake only seems to catch half of the link, causing the front of the link to jump up a little when the wheel hits the tooth. Is that what it's supposed to be? Seems odd that the link-sized brake wouldn't catch the whole link. See photo.

EDIT: Found the answer to this (by you) in the HF Grinder thread you posted above, so nevermind! Second: do you set the left/right adjustment independently for each side of the chain, or do you set it once at the beginning of the first side and then leave it there for the second side? I had problems with this when I first got it because I was trying to set it for each side independently and it was causing curved cuts. I started setting it once on the first side only and it absolutely makes the teeth different lengths on each side (see other photo). I know this will cause curved cuts for sure. The real short teeth are the ones I set it for, and the longer ones are in the other side after grinding WITHOUT changing the adjustment knob. Which method is right?

 

[JeffRH]

I apply light pressure, let the file do the job, I think more of keeping the file in correct orientation than force applied to the tooth, if you have to force the file into the cut, its blunt.
Do you scrape the file back along the tooth after pushing forward on the cutting stroke, if so, you will dull the file quickly.
Always lift the file clear of the tooth on the return stroke.

Some good reading on chain sharpening here.
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philberts-chain-salvage-challenge.245369/page-23

And post clear pictures here, you will get up to speed quickly.
When I started out here, I could not sharpen a chain, I had no idea, but I wanted to learn, now I have enough knowledge to enjoy sharp chains, and to see why they dont cut and fix the problem, have also now helped many friends along the path of knowing how to sharpen properly.
Im sure in time, you will do the same.

Going to check out the rest of that thread there after I check out the other two, but I looked at the post Philbert referenced in that one earlier. Looks like a lot to learn.

With that jig, I don't scrape back against the tooth when I finish in-to-out file strokes. I do remove it all the way. Typically do 10 strokes...but again I'm getting the idea that I'm being more aggressive with the file than I should be. Maybe that's why they don't seem to last very long.

For round files, is there a correct direction? I wouldn't have guessed that there was, but there definitely seems like more "grit" in one direction than the other, so when I switch to the opposite side of the chain, I also switch the file around to the opposite direction. Am I imagining things?

 

[old guy]

Incidentally, I don't know how much you'll be able to tell from this, but this is the same chain and I'm seeing what happens with the grinder just to experiment a little. Can't mess it up any further, so...

Anyway, I upped the height a little on the wheel so I'm not going as far in, and am taking a good bit off. Seems sharper, but how does the curve and point look? Ignore the multiple depths if you will and look at the newest one.
View attachment 745775

That tooth looks a whole lot better.

 

[Philbert]

. . . you seem to be knowledgeable of the HF grinder so I wanted to ask you a couple of things.
First: the brake only seems to catch half of the link, causing the front of the link to jump up a little when the wheel hits the tooth. Is that what it's supposed to be? Seems odd that the link-sized brake wouldn't catch the whole link.
Second: do you set the left/right adjustment independently for each side of the chain, or do you set it once at the beginning of the first side and then leave it there for the second side?

The HF grinder is a cheap, light duty grinder at best. If you know what you want your final tooth to look like, and you understand how the grinder works, you may be able to improve the cutters, within limits. Best suited for light touch ups of standard angles. Not for rocked chains like you show. If you want to learn more, follow those YouTube videos in the HF threads (and take each with a grain of salt, like most YouTube videos).

With that jig, I don't scrape back against the tooth when I finish in-to-out file strokes. I do remove it all the way. Typically do 10 strokes...but again I'm getting the idea that I'm being more aggressive with the file than I should be.
For round files, is there a correct direction? I wouldn't have guessed that there was, but there definitely seems like more "grit" in one direction than the other, so when I switch to the opposite side of the chain, I also switch the file around to the opposite direction. Am I imagining things?

Assume this is for the Granberg jig?

Adjust it so that you are filing the edges of the teeth (go back and clean up the gullet later, but remember that the gullet does not cut - the edges do).

Files only cut on the forward stroke, from the inside out.


It is not the number of strokes, but attaining that edge that is important. Could be 1, 3, 11, . . . Different cutters on the same loop may require different numbers of strokes. Compare your edges to a cutter on a new chain. Work toward that. Then focus on making the cutters the same, if possible. A lot of guys are stronger on one side than the other, so maybe they file the left hand cutters 3 strokes and the right hand cutters 4 times (or vice-versa).

These are pretty good, basic videos on filing (any brand of saw or chain):





Philbert

 

[speeco]

I would use semi chisel chain, no point to have to keep sharp. It is better suited for dirty wood. Much easier to sharpen. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Philbert]

And remember that files are consumables; like sandpaper or Kleenex.

When they stop cutting, it is time to replace them.

Philbert

 

[JeffRH]

I would use semi chisel chain, no point to have to keep sharp. It is better suited for dirty wood. Much easier to sharpen. Just my 2 cents worth.

I was thinking about that earlier. Just got 3 new full chisel chains in the mail today, and I have never used semis, but I will give that a shot next time I need to get some.

 

[Rabid K9]

I would use semi chisel chain, no point to have to keep sharp. It is better suited for dirty wood. Much easier to sharpen. Just my 2 cents worth.

While it's partially true semi chisel tends to dull more slowly than full chisel, full chisel provides considerable benefit in cutting speed & energy saving in terms of reduced cut time & effort required on saw.

I buy by the roll in all the different gauges & run full chisel on everything from the 201T up to 880 (about 20 saws), keeping semi on the smaller pruning saws for fine work, heavy timber carpentry etc. Find the full chisel, particularly in larger gauges much easier to sharpen freehand with easy to maintain angle aligning with cutting edges.

Find that sharp full compared to sharp semi reduces cutting time with same wood & same saw around 30-50%, which makes a considerable time & energy saving on big volume jobs. That cutting speed & reduced energy input is particularly relevant on big climbs when your doing strenuous blocking out of big timber.

That time saved allows for daily light sharpening & keeping saws fresh....

Once you have experienced properly sharp full chisel whistling through clean hardwood on a new Stihl, it's hard to go back to the handicap of semi chisel.

We frequently have clients staring is disbelief that saws will drop through timber so quickly.

 

[Rabid K9]

Advice please?

I think you should start by apologising profusely to your saws for doing that to it....

I apologise to the 880 before & after each big stump, the newer the chain, the more apologising I do.

 

[JeffRH]

Sitting here looking at the job in front of me, I think it becomes obvious why the chains get beat up, right?

 

[Rabid K9]

Sitting here looking at the job in front of me, I think it becomes obvious why the chains get beat up, right? View attachment 745933

Yep, that is apologising material right there....

I would start by cleaning of the stump with blower, then hose if available, get as much soil out as possible before saw gets in there.

 

[Tin-knocker]

Find that sharp full compared to sharp semi reduces cutting time with same wood & same saw around 30-50%, which makes a considerable time & energy saving on big volume jobs. That cutting speed & reduced energy input is particularly relevant on big climbs when your doing strenuous blocking out of big timber.

So you’re saying you will cut twice as fast with full chisel? That’s quite a claim. I haven’t used full chisel so I’m not calling bs. But if that’s true I might have to change some setups!

 

[Del_]

Yep, that is apologising material right there....

I would start by cleaning of the stump with blower, then hose if available, get as much soil out as possible before saw gets in there.

I sometimes do a little axing at the cut line.

If I've got guys standing around when stumping.......more axing at the cut line.

 

[Ted Jenkins]

There have been debates on chisel vs semi chisel here over several years with no one answer being right for every body. With some one knowing how aggressive to set up a chain under many conditions there is little difference between chisel and semi chisel. There are many videos online of people with the same intent to prove one better than the other. For clean green or damp wood cutting chisel chain is very difficult to beat. As wood dries out the advantages is minimized. The wood I most often cut will most certainly stop a chisel chain. It suddenly becomes a nuisance rather than a tool. A chisel chain can be made to get through a large dried Oak, but will not get through more than a few cuts before needing a full sharpen exorcise. When using chisel chain on certain projects it has been not uncommon to sharpen eight times a day with the chain being completely worn out in two days. Where as the semi chisel can do the same job with only one or two sharpening needed. When I fell green growing Pine trees a chisel would melt through the trunks virtually with out effort. Thanks