Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
In case some one takes Ben's post out of context... I wouldn't be running my saws on E85... There are many issues with running saws on E85.
American - German Stihl's
- Thread starter WoodTick007
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I wouldn't be using any ethanol doped fuels if at all possible.
BTW the reason you cnat run E-85 through a saw is two fold. #1 many two cycle oils will not mix with E-85,#2 your jets would have to be much, much larger as its going to take three times as much ethanol to achieve the proper fuel air mixture.
THALL10326
The Champ
ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,lolol. Pest are ya trying to say they don't check every single engine?? If so you are 100% dead in the water wrong because they do. You wonder how I'm sure being they build millions a year. How fast is that operation at the factory, try a saw going into a box every 20 seconds. Thats fast isn't but if you saw how they do it you would see why their quality is tops in the biz.
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Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
The REAL scoop... yes, all units are fired and tested.
I called my Stihl Tech Services Manager (dealers only) and received the following information:
Stihl Virgina has two EPA test cells. They run 24x7... The testing process as agreed with the EPA (for Stihl) is as follows:
EVERY saw or whatever motorized unit is fired, run and adjusted on the assembly line BY ROBOTS. The robot even pulls the starter rope.
Every 250 units the adjusted device is sent to an EPA test cell. Until it's verified as passing, the prior 250 units are quarantined. All data on the test is kept on file and inspected by the EPA on demand. The current warm-up period is 5 minutes, and the device is tested at idle and full power as measured on a dynometer. Failure of the test unit required retesting and documented fixes on the prior 250 units.
California sales units are tested to the same standards except one is pulled and verified every 100 units, not 250 as for the rest for the country.
The test fuel is a specific EPA approved test formulation of 89 octane and 10% ethanol.
The EPA is considering increasing the "warm up" period to 10 minutes. Stihl is building a third test EPA cell in anticipation.
In Stihl's case, Quality is "job one". A slip on the QA/QC affecting emissions means a huge backlog of units needing retesting...
I called my Stihl Tech Services Manager (dealers only) and received the following information:
Stihl Virgina has two EPA test cells. They run 24x7... The testing process as agreed with the EPA (for Stihl) is as follows:
EVERY saw or whatever motorized unit is fired, run and adjusted on the assembly line BY ROBOTS. The robot even pulls the starter rope.
Every 250 units the adjusted device is sent to an EPA test cell. Until it's verified as passing, the prior 250 units are quarantined. All data on the test is kept on file and inspected by the EPA on demand. The current warm-up period is 5 minutes, and the device is tested at idle and full power as measured on a dynometer. Failure of the test unit required retesting and documented fixes on the prior 250 units.
California sales units are tested to the same standards except one is pulled and verified every 100 units, not 250 as for the rest for the country.
The test fuel is a specific EPA approved test formulation of 89 octane and 10% ethanol.
The EPA is considering increasing the "warm up" period to 10 minutes. Stihl is building a third test EPA cell in anticipation.
In Stihl's case, Quality is "job one". A slip on the QA/QC affecting emissions means a huge backlog of units needing retesting...
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"Pest must be doing his math again"
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PES+
Addicted to ArboristSite
You do the math
There are 525600 minutes in a year
5 minutes each
4 million units
hello?
There are 525600 minutes in a year
5 minutes each
4 million units
hello?
PES+
Addicted to ArboristSite
And regarding your comment that I tell the EPA on Stihl why would I attempt such a thing? It is not my intent to smear nor cause harm to anyone.........I just get tired of people parroting corporate fantasy land messages
Lakeside please ask your tech manager how many robots are in the test department
If this doesn't pull the Stihl guys out of the woodwork here I don't know of anything that will
Lakeside please ask your tech manager how many robots are in the test department
If this doesn't pull the Stihl guys out of the woodwork here I don't know of anything that will
PES+
Addicted to ArboristSite
As far as calling for the guy's job that taught the thick ethanol I did not.....all I ask is that he apologize for his error and correct his information.
It was someone else who is more brutal than I that wants blood to satisfy a personal belief in a manufacturer's message
It was someone else who is more brutal than I that wants blood to satisfy a personal belief in a manufacturer's message
Pest, I have read this thread entirely and just don't understand what point you are trying to make, or it could be just me of course.
Your point is .......
Your point is .......
PES+
Addicted to ArboristSite
My point is facts are verifiable .....by numbers. When fictions are presented as facts in a technical arena there is the beginning of a downturn in usabilty in any product produced.
As I stated I am not singling out Stihl but am tired of explaining to my customers who waste my time expounding what manufacturers state as facts which any reasoning human should be able to discern as being physically impossible.
To clarify my position on "quality" the units themselves are actually better on average than compeitors offerings. My problem is designing of product that fits the production requirements rather than designing and improving products based on the usablity for the intended market.
I find far to much celebrating of mediocrity these days across all product lines
I should point out as well that my observations and opinions are my own and the site owner here is not responsible for them.
I take responsiblity for myself
I have no problem believing that at one time all units produced at the Virginia facilty were tested individually but I have a very hard time running the numbers now
If I read Lakesides response correctly it appears that Stihl states that all units are test run at the end of the production line yet 1 in 250 are actually fully emmisions tested.
That's fine....I have no problem with that.....I have a problem with EVERYONE INSISTING to me that Stihl emmisions tests every single unit produced.....again not possible as far as I can tell
As I stated I am not singling out Stihl but am tired of explaining to my customers who waste my time expounding what manufacturers state as facts which any reasoning human should be able to discern as being physically impossible.
To clarify my position on "quality" the units themselves are actually better on average than compeitors offerings. My problem is designing of product that fits the production requirements rather than designing and improving products based on the usablity for the intended market.
I find far to much celebrating of mediocrity these days across all product lines
I should point out as well that my observations and opinions are my own and the site owner here is not responsible for them.
I take responsiblity for myself
I have no problem believing that at one time all units produced at the Virginia facilty were tested individually but I have a very hard time running the numbers now
If I read Lakesides response correctly it appears that Stihl states that all units are test run at the end of the production line yet 1 in 250 are actually fully emmisions tested.
That's fine....I have no problem with that.....I have a problem with EVERYONE INSISTING to me that Stihl emmisions tests every single unit produced.....again not possible as far as I can tell
Canyon Angler
Addicted to ArboristSite
I like the "string theory" of gasoline...LOL. As far as I know, ethanol is actually a smaller molecule than gasoline. Regardless, the orifice in a carb jet (or the holes in a 20-micron fuel filter) is probably a trillion trillion trilion times bigger than either molecule...kinda like comparing the diameter of Jupiter to the diameter of a golf ball.
OK, back to our regularly-scheduled argument.opcorn:
OK, back to our regularly-scheduled argument.
opcorn:
PES+
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks for your detailed answer. I have never been in a chainsaw manufactering plant, but it seems that performing an emissions test on each individual saw is impossible, based on the fact that a valid emissions test would have to be performed on a warmed up engine, which would take quite some time (not to mention exhaust gases, noise, etc)
But I can imagine very easily that such test be performed on a sampling base (1 one 100 for ex) which would provide you with enough statistical data to indicate a trend for the production batches, and be accepted as a representative method.
nothing wrong with that .
But on the other hand, I do believe that every saw is tested shortly in run mode (same as a car plant actually).
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Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
Who's EVERYONE? Go back and read what I said in this thread... I did not day EACH UNIT was tested for emissions..... I said each unit is run and tested.
EPA requires each unit that leaves the factory to not exceed emissions levels. How they achieve that is negotiated with the EPA. You started this storm-in-a-teacup by saying that each unit was not even run... implied we were either stupid, misled or lying, and now you're backpedling. Whatever..
How come you can't accept anything anyone says unless you see it for yourself? And we not just talking this particular instance... You act like your the only guy in the world that can "see the truth". We're all smart enough to question and to have a certain level of suspicion... and we don't accept spoon fed bs... but we aren't paranoid...
Back to the issue at hand..
They are all tested and adjusted on the line - every unit, and because of the QA/QC processes in place, and the results of EPA testing of those practices, the EPA is happy with the sampling (except CA, which requires every 100). This is normal manufacturing processes... If the results improve, they may be allowed to test at a less frequent rate, or if they worsen, they may be required to sample more often.
Why don't you help out by finding out how another manufacturer does their production and testing? You seem to be well connected, so use those connections and share the knowledge.
As for the numbers... it's 1 million units last year, with a projection this year of 4 million... As for the 5 minutes... do you even know if the warm-up is IN the test cell??? You can't do math without all the facts...
Pest will be Pest.......kinda reminds me of ..... if you know what I mean...
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Canyon Angler
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yeah but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone's not out to get you... :jester: :crazy1:
opcorn:THALL10326
The Champ
Pest theres over 1300 workers in that 73 acre factory. Instead of using your calulator and assuming this and that you should go check out that place. You might come away with a different point of view about what all goes on down there. Fact is though they probly could care less what assumers think, they are too busy making products,hint hint, hellooooooooooooooooooo!!!!
Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
Yeah but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone's not out to get you... :jester: :crazy1:
They are ???? oh no.....
I liked that movie...
PES+
Addicted to ArboristSite
I never said nor implied that Stihl was doing anything illegal as they are quite good on their emissions compliance and all indicators are that they are very serious about their emissions image and responsibility.
You guys have made my point better than I could.
All units are run at the factory....I have heard this more than once in my career and from numerous manufacturers of many different products.
Therefore when anyone opens a box of a new unit and it does not run due to any number of reasons.....it didn't really happen......remember that....it never happened.
I did not say if.....I said when
Believe me I wish one of you guys here was teaching for tech school because it would save me gray matter when I need to get parts and have to overhear some of the latest that the graduates feel a need to tell the customer in front of me. And I am not just singling out Stihl......
As far as the group of thugs mentality just consider me the guy still walking the wheel the opposite way
Can't hep it
I do not own a tinfoil hat.......but my custom MU metal helmet comes in handy
You guys have made my point better than I could.
All units are run at the factory....I have heard this more than once in my career and from numerous manufacturers of many different products.
Therefore when anyone opens a box of a new unit and it does not run due to any number of reasons.....it didn't really happen......remember that....it never happened.
I did not say if.....I said when
Believe me I wish one of you guys here was teaching for tech school because it would save me gray matter when I need to get parts and have to overhear some of the latest that the graduates feel a need to tell the customer in front of me. And I am not just singling out Stihl......
As far as the group of thugs mentality just consider me the guy still walking the wheel the opposite way
Can't hep it
I do not own a tinfoil hat.......but my custom MU metal helmet comes in handy
