Backup generator opinions.

[Husky Man]

As to the cheaper generators, I have a Champion brand 3500/4000 watt gas portable that has been flawless for reliability, that thing can sit for months, and start on the first pull, you’d think it was built by Husqvarna. I just have to be quick to open the choke, once it’s started, it doesn’t like being choked.

Nope, the Champion isn’t as quiet as a Honda. we went camping for Labor Day weekend, and the weekend before, and it ran all night each night, and a good part of each day running the Wife’s oxygen concentrator and compressor for her portable oxygen tanks. Having to run the generator after “quite time “ ruled out staying in a campground, but we know many places to dry camp in the woods near the lake, and we were able to get our Favorite spot for both weekends. It was the Daughter and her new Husband, one of the Sons and his Little Girl, and a Nephew and his Wife and Kids with us, so they all understood about needing the generator all night.
Yep, it sucks having to take the oxygen concentrator and compressor camping , but ya do what ya gotta do, to give those ya Love the Best Life you can, and there were a lot of Good Times and Memories made over those weekends, definitely a small price for the Rewards

I have had that Champion I’m sure for more than 15 years, and it hasn’t had the oil changed as often as it should, might even be the original spark plug, but it is like the Energizer Bunny , it just keeps going, and Going, and GOING

I haven’t used one, but I have read many positive reviews on the Predator brand engines, seems quite a few members have used them to repower splitters here on AS

Not often, and usually involving Chinese theft off Intellectual property, but sometimes you do get more than you pay for. That cheap Champion generator has more than earned its keep, and I have more than gotten my money’s worth out of it, and it doesn’t show any signs of slowing down


Doug

 

[ATpro]

The China -honda clones have flooded the market for 20 yrs or so and companies like Generac are of this design. Honeywell, GE, Coleman, Predator

I have a PTO gen and a portable CAT 12k gen, haven't had any problems with the CAT 12k gen. They are china made but with CAT specifications. Bought the CAT because they will support it with service and parts for years. Can run 2 small AC, 2 fridges, 1 freezer, light and wall plugs, tv, computer system, and satellite system with no problem. Could run the the central AC and hot water heater but may have to limit some of the other stuff.

 

[Bill G]

We went with a Honeywell 20 KW standby unit that runs on propane, 3 years ago. Propane isn’t the cheapest fuel option, but for us it was the Best overall option.

Our PGE (Portland General Electric) took note of Californicated’s PG&E’s experience with the Paradise Fire, and “De-energized” us 2 years ago for over a week, for fire safety reasons, the following winter, we were without power for 5 days

When they shut us off, I was working away from home, and the Wife was with me that trip, so there was no one home to set up the 4 KW portable generator. We lost 2 refrigerator/freezer a 2 large upright freezers of food. When the power was restored, the surge fried our dishwasher, 2 microwaves and some smaller appliances, we estimated the total losses at over $4,500. Thaf was when we decided to get the standby generator

We did pretty well price wise on our setup, Costco had the 20 KW Honeywell, with the automatic transfer switch for $4,200, the contractor we use a lot, installed everything on a “work in basis” between jobs, and charged us $3,800, which we have heard is well below the standard charge around here

We are using the 120 gallon/420# tanks, because of the siting requirements of larger tanks. Here the 120 gallon tanks can be placed next to the house, you still have to be, IIRC, 10’ from any opening doors, windows, foundation vents or “ignition sources “ such as your electrical meter, and the generator itself.

By the time that I got serious about getting the tanks, they had gone from $800 each to over $1,500 locally, and that was if you could even find them.

With some online searching, I found that Menard’s still had them for $800. The problem was, Menard’s closest stores are in Casper, and Cheyenne WY. We live about 45 miles East of the Cesspool known as Portland. We decided to make a vacation road trip out of it, and ordered 8 tanks. It took several months for Menard’s to get the tanks, and in July, we were off on an adventure to get them

We originally planned on keeping two tanks, and the first 3 extra tanks sold pretty quickly, the next two tanks took about a month to sell. I started thinking about it some more, and decided to keep a third tank, at half load, our generator burns about 2 gallons an hour, so two tanks would give us about 4 days run time. I am often away from home for work 5 days at a time, so I decided to keep the third tank.

After having Covid two years ago, my Wife’s lungs still haven’t recovered, at this point we’re not sure they ever will , and she is dependent on an oxygen concentrator, so now, the generator isn’t just a Luxury, and that third tank should give enough run time for me to get home regardless of when the power goes out. Our setup is completely automatic, so we don’t have to worry about the Wife waking up in the middle of the night to start the generator, if she is sleeping, she may not even realize that the power went out at all. That is a HUGE load off my back.

We were able to sell the five extra tanks for $1,500 each, delivered, which only 3 customers had us deliver them, the other two came out to pick them up. After calculating our fuel, and an oil change, we came out a bit ahead, and weren’t out any out of pocket expenses for the three tanks that we kept. We had a couple calls on the last tank, after I decided to keep it, even though we had dropped our online ads, but I decided that the Peace of Mind that it provided, was worth way more than the $1,500 I would have gotten selling it

In the end, our setup cost us right at $8,000, which was about half of the price of people we talked to that just called a contractor, and had them do a write a check, sign the papers installation, which was running $14-16,000. And we had a Fun road trip to Cheyenne, the scenic route through Moab UT, with a 3 day stop there

There are a lot of different options, it is a matter of deciding where the balance point is for you, based on Price, Performance (how much power you need) and Convenience

We have been Very Happy with our setup, the Honeywell uses Generac components, and has so far been very reliable


Doug

If you do not have LP at your house what are you using for your backup heat source? How are you getting the tanks filled?

 

[Husky Man]

If you do not have LP at your house what are you using for your backup heat source? How are you getting the tanks filled?

Nat Gas isn’t available in our area, if you have LP piped in like other places have Nat Gas, that is new to me

A lot of people around us have large propane tanks 120-500 gallon, either leased from the propane company, or privately owned like us. The propane companies will deliver, basically the same way that the oil companies do for those that heat with oil

Being in a group, like on the “Nextdoor” website, we can usually negotiate a significant discount if a minimum number of people commit to taking a delivery on a certain date, with a minimum amount of propane being delivered

We have 3 of the 420#/120 gallon tanks, as the siting and set back requirements made them more practical than a single larger tank


Doug

 

[grizz55chev]

I have a PTO gen and a portable CAT 12k gen, haven't had any problems with the CAT 12k gen. They are china made but with CAT specifications. Bought the CAT because they will support it with service and parts for years. Can run 2 small AC, 2 fridges, 1 freezer, light and wall plugs, tv, computer system, and satellite system with no problem. Could run the the central AC and hot water heater but may have to limit some of the other stuff.

Hot water and AC are the big energy hogs, we don't need AC and the hot water is on demand propane.the electronics are very vulnerable to dirty power, that's where inverter gens have the edge. During the day in the summer, I use a tailgaters 1,000 watt to watch TV, use internet and landlines phone, saves a ton on fuel cost.

 

[Husky Man]

If you do not have LP at your house what are you using for your backup heat source? How are you getting the tanks filled?

As to the back up heat source, a Realtor would say that our Forced Air Electric Furnace is our Primary Heating Source, and the standby generator will power that. In reality we use our wood stove for heating, we have a 3 Bed/3 Bath, 1930 square foot house , that is well laid out, and the wood stove well placed to heat very well, with temperatures in the 20’s, which is common here, the wood stove alone will keep the house at 73-78 degrees, way warmer than we would ever set the furnace thermostat, on the occasional days in the teens, the wood stove will still keep the house at 70 degrees, still plenty comfortable

About the only time that we run the furnace is either on a chilly morning in the shoulder seasons, rather than lighting a fire, or in the winter, if we are going to be gone overnight, and aren’t able to stoke the wood stove to burn that long. That is usually for 3-5 days between Christmas and New Year’s, going to Wenatchee/Leavenworth, WA has become an annual tradition for the Wife and I, that is one of the few times that our furnace gets any real use, the rest of the time it is almost exclusively wood heat


Doug

 

[Bill G]

Nat Gas isn’t available in our area, if you have LP piped in like other places have Nat Gas, that is new to me

A lot of people around us have large propane tanks 120-500 gallon, either leased from the propane company, or privately owned like us. The propane companies will deliver, basically the same way that the oil companies do for those that heat with oil

Being in a group, like on the “Nextdoor” website, we can usually negotiate a significant discount if a minimum number of people commit to taking a delivery on a certain date, with a minimum amount of propane being delivered

We have 3 of the 420#/120 gallon tanks, as the siting and set back requirements made them more practical than a single larger tank


Doug

Around here everyone has LP/propane. Most everyone has a 1000 gallon tank and that is what I have. I also have a 500 gallon, 60 gallon tanks that came of the old propane delivery trucks, and of course a bunch of 100lb cylinders. I have a liquid tube with a fill hose in the 1000 gallon tank. With that I can fill the 100lb cylinders and 20lb grill tanks. That makes running the weed burner nice, ya no I have to being able to get my tire fires going

I understand your area is totally different and I am not sure it would work here. We have a 250 or 300 gallon minimum order. Also you cannot allow your tank to get to 10%. If you do, then they have to do a leak test and that is $60. Most all of us have 1000 gallon tanks because with a 500 gallon tank you have to really watch your level. You can only fill a tank to 80% in the summer and 85% in the winter. In reality you only have 350-375 gallons between full and empty so you have to let it get down to 15% then hope they can fill you soon.

Since your tanks do not have a line going in the house you can run yours to empty without any trouble. Another advantage is if push comes to shove and you cannot get Lp delivered you can always toss the tank in the pickup and go get it filled in a pinch, around her that is quite expensive though. The last I had delivered was just shy of $2/gallon, in town probably $5/gallon

On a side note many years ago we had a famer here that had a fleet of Lp powered tractors. He had (3) Minneapolis Moline A4T-1600 4x4 tractors on LP. He had a 18,000 gallon tank to support the fleet

 

[Bill G]

As to the back up heat source, a Realtor would say that our Forced Air Electric Furnace is our Primary Heating Source, and the standby generator will power that. In reality we use our wood stove for heating, we have a 3 Bed/3 Bath, 1930 square foot house , that is well laid out, and the wood stove well placed to heat very well, with temperatures in the 20’s, which is common here, the wood stove alone will keep the house at 73-78 degrees, way warmer than we would ever set the furnace thermostat, on the occasional days in the teens, the wood stove will still keep the house at 70 degrees, still plenty comfortable

About the only time that we run the furnace is either on a chilly morning in the shoulder seasons, rather than lighting a fire, or in the winter, if we are going to be gone overnight, and aren’t able to stoke the wood stove to burn that long. That is usually for 3-5 days between Christmas and New Year’s, going to Wenatchee/Leavenworth, WA has become an annual tradition for the Wife and I, that is one of the few times that our furnace gets any real use, the rest of the time it is almost exclusively wood heat


Doug

I use wood for all heating. Light a fire in the outdoor boiler in the fall and let it go out in the spring. My water heater and clothes dryer are Lp. My cook stove was Lp but it went to hell and I had a spare electric one from a rental so that is what I use now. I do have a LP forced air furnace also if needed

 

[pdqdl]

I recently purchased a Generlink transfer switch

That sounds like a really good way to hook up a smaller capacity genset. Smart and doing it right. But expensive!

I've been back-feeding my house and shop for 40 years with a 50amp connection that costs about $80 installed. It does require manually switching your meter off from the building, but I can do an awful lot of switching for $1500, and my setup will never fail to work.

Just install a 50 amp receptacle on the building where your genset is going to run. Make a short patch cord of heavy gauge wire and add the necessary plugs to match up with the house and genset receptacles. When the power goes out, throw the main breaker to the house, plug in the generator, and start it up. Your house is now wired properly to your 50amp or less power supply. There is no chance of back-feeding the entire electric grid, so long as you throw the main breaker, just like there is no chance of the power coming back on and roasting your genset.

If fail to throw the main breaker, however, that will cause BIG problems. Leaving the genset running or attached will also be a big problem when you turn the main breaker back on.

When the power goes out on those winter storms that last for days, my shop is a beacon of light in the neighborhood. My 10k welder/generator has no problem running everything in the building except for the air compressor. Since my waste oil heater requires a constant air source, we hook up a dinky little air compressor to run it, as my big air compressor is a bit too much.

 

[Bill G]

That sounds like a really good way to hook up a smaller capacity genset. Smart and doing it right. But expensive!

I've been back-feeding my house and shop for 40 years with a 50amp connection that costs about $80 installed. It does require manually switching your meter off from the building, but I can do an awful lot of switching for $1500, and my setup will never fail to work.

Just install a 50 amp receptacle on the building where your genset is going to run. Make a short patch cord of heavy gauge wire and add the necessary plugs to match up with the house and genset receptacles. When the power goes out, throw the main breaker to the house, plug in the generator, and start it up. Your house is now wired properly to your 50amp or less power supply. There is no chance of back-feeding the entire electric grid, so long as you throw the main breaker, just like there is no chance of the power coming back on and roasting your genset.

If fail to throw the main breaker, however, that will cause BIG problems. Leaving the genset running or attached will also be a big problem when you turn the main breaker back on.

When the power goes out on those winter storms that last for days, my shop is a beacon of light in the neighborhood. My 10k welder/generator has no problem running everything in the building except for the air compressor. Since my waste oil heater requires a constant air source, we hook up a dinky little air compressor to run it, as my big air compressor is a bit too much.

You can do it that way but the power company frowns on it. It is best to install an outdoor disconnect below the meter base. All you need is a slam switch

 

[pdqdl]

Also you cannot allow your tank to get to 10%. If you do, then they have to do a leak test and that is $60.

That seems like a dirty trick in the middle of a winter crisis. How does one measure the amount of fuel remaining in one of those big tanks?

 

[Husky Man]

We have 3 of the 420#/120 gallon tanks, that have a nominal usable capacity of 100 gallons each, but those aren’t transportable. I do have two 100#/25 gallon cylinders that I can transport to refill if needed, and several 30#, and a 20# tank that I can use in a real pinch.

We are in the middle of a major kitchen remodel, and the Wife is Excited About her new 6 burner range, so we do have gas in the house now, and our contractor is installing a gas connection for the BBQ, unfortunately, our water heater died about a year before we had the propane tanks, so we had to replace it with another electric unit, any future water heaters would be propane


Doug

 

[Husky Man]

That seems like a dirty trick in the middle of a winter crisis. How does one measure the amount of fuel remaining in one of those big tanks?

The tanks have a level gauge on them, you just have to go look at it once in awhile

I believe that there are remote reading gauges available, but I don’t know anything about cost or what is involved in installation


Doug

 

[pdqdl]

You can do it that way but the power company frowns on it. It is best to install an outdoor disconnect below the meter base. All you need is a slam switch

Eh. I've got a 200 amp manual switch box if I get ambitious. The heavy wires going in to my 200amp box are really hard to work with, and that setup is entirely code-compliant. If I were to install any sort of switch between my meter and my breaker box, it would no longer be safe from the code inspectors, and wouldn't change much of anything from a user's perspective. Right now, the feed from my meter box outside goes through the wall, straight in to my breaker box. The only way to make an automatic or manual switch code compliant would be to remove my breaker box, pick up the leads coming from the meter box, and then do some pricey electrical expansions. Lots of work, no gain for just a manual switch.

Now I can see the advantages of the automatic switch for folks with medical problems, equipment that cannot be interrupted, or even the people that have an unreliable electric grid.

My power goes off about once every two months, but usually for less than 1/2 hour, and rarely for more than a few hours. I don't think I've plugged in the generator for about 5 years.

 

[grizz55chev]

That seems like a dirty trick in the middle of a winter crisis. How does one measure the amount of fuel remaining in one of those big tanks?

It has a guage built in, never let it get below 10 %, call for refill around July to beat the rise in fuel rates for winter. LP is $3.50 a gal to refill at the local service station, a better deal than the fuel mafia providers in our area. We use on average 1 gal a day yr round for hot water, cooking, cloths dryer and thermostatically controlled heater that sees very little use. I refill my own tanks now and don't depend on fuel delivery anymore, got tired of getting ripped off The local gas station has had the same price for going on 2 yrs with no rise for winter or summer, so they will continue to get my business.

 

[Husky Man]

Eh. I've got a 200 amp manual switch box if I get ambitious. The heavy wires going in to my 200amp box are really hard to work with, and that setup is entirely code-compliant. If I were to install any sort of switch between my meter and my breaker box, it would no longer be safe from the code inspectors, and wouldn't change much of anything from a user's perspective. Now I can see the advantages of the automatic switch for folks with medical problems, equipment that cannot be interrupted, or even the people that have an unreliable electric grid.

My power goes off about once every two months, but usually for less than 1/2 hour, and rarely for more than a few hours. I don't think I've plugged in the generator for about 5 years.

When we first moved here in 2016, we rarely had a power outage last more than a couple hours, in the last couple years, the outages have become more frequent and of longer duration than we experienced before.

After the Paradise Fire, we have had our power deenergized a couple of times only once for over a week, but have also had several warnings, that the conditions were approaching the level of deenergizing our area, unfortunately a medical condition does make it more than an inconvenience for us

I lived very close to our current home, about 2 miles down the road from 1998-2003, and power outages were not very frequent or long lasting then either , but times have changed

I’m SURE that it is CLIMATE CHANGE, and has Nothing to do with Litigation . Of course higher labor costs, and smaller crews contribute to longer , if not more frequent outages


Doug

 

[grizz55chev]

We have 3 of the 420#/120 gallon tanks, that have a nominal usable capacity of 100 gallons each, but those aren’t transportable. I do have two 100#/25 gallon cylinders that I can transport to refill if needed, and several 30#, and a 20# tank that I can use in a real pinch.

We are in the middle of a major kitchen remodel, and the Wife is Excited About her new 6 burner range, so we do have gas in the house now, and our contractor is installing a gas connection for the BBQ, unfortunately, our water heater died about a year before we had the propane tanks, so we had to replace it with another electric unit, any future water heaters would be propane


Doug

Propane has been the way to go for us since we moved here back in 96. The water heater was a huge game changer when it comes to power outages, as well as the oven-cook stove! Our last power outage caught a lot of recent city dwelling transplants off guard as to the cost of running their shiny new whole house standby generators, they would run them 24 hr straight for a week at a time till their tank ran dry, not realizing that delivery was unavailable due to unpassable roads and their cost to run for a week was more than my propane needs for the whole yr!

 

[grizz55chev]

Eh. I've got a 200 amp manual switch box if I get ambitious. The heavy wires going in to my 200amp box are really hard to work with, and that setup is entirely code-compliant. If I were to install any sort of switch between my meter and my breaker box, it would no longer be safe from the code inspectors, and wouldn't change much of anything from a user's perspective. Right now, the feed from my meter box outside goes through the wall, straight in to my breaker box. The only way to make an automatic or manual switch code compliant would be to remove my breaker box, pick up the leads coming from the meter box, and then do some pricey electrical expansions. Lots of work, no gain for just a manual switch.

Now I can see the advantages of the automatic switch for folks with medical problems, equipment that cannot be interrupted, or even the people that have an unreliable electric grid.

My power goes off about once every two months, but usually for less than 1/2 hour, and rarely for more than a few hours. I don't think I've plugged in the generator for about 5 years.

They make an interlock device for most modern panels that is simple and cheap to install, it doesn't allow you to turn on the gen breaker unless the main is off, completely up to code and pretty easy to install. Combine that with the correct plug for your gen and pretty much any small gen is up to code. It is manual so you have to go outside to do the shutdown at night and restart in the morning, which is when I check the oil and refuel anyway.

 

[muddstopper]

Depending on load, a 30 pound bottle won't last long, and it's much worse in the winter, unless it doesn't get cold there.

SR

Maybe not, but I already own them and I dont want a big white watermelon of a tank in my back yard. The whole reason for going dual fuel is in the event I run out of one I can use the other.

 

[Bill G]

That seems like a dirty trick in the middle of a winter crisis. How does one measure the amount of fuel remaining in one of those big tanks?

The same way you see how much fuel is in your truck, you look at the fuel gauge It isn't rocket science. The only difference is Lp tanks are measured by percentage of capacity. You NEVER want to overfill a tank. In general 80% in the summer and 85% in the

As for a "dirty trick" it is not at all a dirty trick. They are trying to save your damned life!!!! If your tank drops below 10% that means one of two things. The first is you were not watching it. In that case all is well. The more serious issue is you have a leak somewhere that has allowed it to get that low. In that case they are trying to keep you from being killed. They do a leak test on your entire system to see where the fuel is going. Think about the consequences if they did not. They go out, fill a near empty tank and drive away while the entire time there is a line leaking in the home of a 80 year old man. That happened here on a farm around 1979. The house exploded and was leveled. It was a very sad site. My father was trapping on the river about 5 miles away and heard the explosion.

A funny story related to letting a tank go empty. When I was a kid there was a farmer (Harry F) south of me that was in his 80's. His wife had passed and I think he just liked having company. He would call me up during the summer and have me help with some odd jobs around the place. He would use his riding mower but had me push mow and trim, fix fence, paint, etc. Now at the time we had a feed mill about 10 miles south that was a bit of everything. They bought grain, ground feed, sold feed, delivered fuel, delivered LP and even did truck inspections. Growing up our phone number was one digit off from theirs and we would get calls for them quite often. Well one day the phone rings and I pick it up. I barely get hello out and I hear....."get over here and fill my Lp tank, dammit I'm cold" I think he followed with a bit more colorful words. Now the person had not even identified themself yet but I knew from the voice it was Harry. I chuckled a bit and said "Harry, I would love to help you but this is Bill and you need to call the feed mill. He was confused but we got it worked out. Those were good times.